barnyard, I haven't had time to fool with it in the last few days. Hopefully tommorrow I can pay more attention and do some more testing. One difference between us, my check valves always test good (If I blow air or force water through them , they allow it in only one direction like they are supposed to) I will open one up tommorrow and look at it.
Liquidator installed below pool level
- Thread starter brywisco
- Start date
My check valves look perfect inside, and you can't blow through them the wrong way. I tried disconnecting tubing from check valve and setting it in a cup like barnyard did. After 4 hours there was about a teaspoon of water in the cup. Every so often I would see one drip. Indications of leakage, but not enough to cause an overflow of the tank. Also disconnected tubing from IN float valve and set a cup under that. No drips at all.
A few hours ago I installed a stiffer spring. This has reduced max flow to 3. I cut off the pump and now I am waiting to see if this makes a difference in overflow. In my case, the tank overfilling doesn't happen gradually in a measurable way. It is somewhat random. I can measure the water level every 30 minutes for hours and there will be no change (stays 2.5 inches below the top). Then I give up and go do something else (like eat or sleep).....next time I look it has overflowed.
Recall that I have a flow control valve on each side of the LQ. If I cut flow on the IN side but leave the OUT side valve open, it won't overflow. If I cut flow on the OUT side and leave the IN side valve open, it won't overflow. The ONLY time it overflows is when BOTH flow control valves are open (as they must be for the unit to operate). I seems the check valve and the IN float valve have teamed up to aggravate me. Both are brand new and appear to be in perfect working order.
Bruce, I am ready to try a different check valve, can you sell one individually or just as part of the kit? Would your valves require push tubing? I tried push tubing before and had trouble with the fittings sucking air. I was told they are not recommended for suction applications, just pressure.
Lastly....I do NOT have a check valve installed on the pressure side, and I can't understand how it could possibly do any good. (I tried it once just for grins and it didn't help this problem). Can anyone tell me WHY a second one is suggested?
A few hours ago I installed a stiffer spring. This has reduced max flow to 3. I cut off the pump and now I am waiting to see if this makes a difference in overflow. In my case, the tank overfilling doesn't happen gradually in a measurable way. It is somewhat random. I can measure the water level every 30 minutes for hours and there will be no change (stays 2.5 inches below the top). Then I give up and go do something else (like eat or sleep).....next time I look it has overflowed.
Recall that I have a flow control valve on each side of the LQ. If I cut flow on the IN side but leave the OUT side valve open, it won't overflow. If I cut flow on the OUT side and leave the IN side valve open, it won't overflow. The ONLY time it overflows is when BOTH flow control valves are open (as they must be for the unit to operate). I seems the check valve and the IN float valve have teamed up to aggravate me. Both are brand new and appear to be in perfect working order.
Bruce, I am ready to try a different check valve, can you sell one individually or just as part of the kit? Would your valves require push tubing? I tried push tubing before and had trouble with the fittings sucking air. I was told they are not recommended for suction applications, just pressure.
Lastly....I do NOT have a check valve installed on the pressure side, and I can't understand how it could possibly do any good. (I tried it once just for grins and it didn't help this problem). Can anyone tell me WHY a second one is suggested?
I just came up with a theory that fits my peculiar test results........Check valve leaks slowly. Tank fills, very slowly, as water enters through the OUT float valve. The IN float valve is forced upward, and stays closed, until water level approaches a critical point where it is deep enough to begin to SUBMERGE the IN float. As the water deepens, the weight of the water above the IN float overcomes its bouyancy and forces it down, which OPENS the IN float valve. Tank fills, now very quickly as water enters through the IN float valve. Tank overflows soon thereafter.
Talking to myself at 2:00 am. Well it was an interesting theory but it didn't test out. I filled my IN tubing with dye and started slowly pouring water into the tank to see when the IN float valve would get submerged enough to open. It didn't. The IN float valve stayed up and held it's seal all the way to overflow conditions, with no dye coming in. I had to press it down pretty hard to get it to open and let dye in. Then I started the pump to lower the level and the IN valve still held it's seal until the level got about 3" down, then it opened and let the dye in, which is probably what it is supposed to do. So the IN valve is innocent. Then why does cutting the IN flow valve off prevent overflow every time? Intermittancy?
Good idea Miranda with the dye. I never thought of that before. I can't make heads or tails out of what is going on with your set up. But, I am going to be REAL interested as you progress toward solving your problem.
I took my LQ completely out and am going to clean it all up and start from scratch. I think I will order the other type of valves before I put it back in though. I am also going to try my best to get the TA and PH levels to be where they should be, as I found in another thread about keeping WS away. I do have high CH, probably because of the years of using cal-hypo pucks. I guess that might be causing problems. I would like to use 12% bleach, but the nearset store to buy it is 30 miles away, and we have a Walmart 5 miles away and on the way home from work, so I really want this to work with 6%. The wife is really giving me the evil eye though and said yesterday ...... 'I hope you don't have to order anymore of those valve things, you already got too much invested in something that doesn't work.' Sooooo, I have to be very sneaky about it.
Since I already did the upgrade for 3/8 tubing, I stopped at Lowes and found 1/4"NPT to 1/4" tube barbs to put in the threaded holes I made and convert back to the 1/4 tubing for the other valves. I hope they don't restrict flow too much, especially since they are 90 degree elbows, but that is all I could find. I also think I need to get this going pretty soon, since the only 1/4 NPT plugs I could find were the iron gas pipe plugs. That was to plug the holes in my pipes while I get it ready to re-install. I am sure they will start to rust fairly soon.
IF all that doesn't work, I just may post a video on youtube of me destrying this thing with an axe. (right about now, that would feel sooooooooooooooooo good! ) 
Now, I need to work up the courage to do the acid wash. I have a friend that was burnt very badly with acid (not sure what kind) and I have a healthy fear of anything acid. (or should that be 'Unhealthy' fear?)
I took my LQ completely out and am going to clean it all up and start from scratch. I think I will order the other type of valves before I put it back in though. I am also going to try my best to get the TA and PH levels to be where they should be, as I found in another thread about keeping WS away. I do have high CH, probably because of the years of using cal-hypo pucks. I guess that might be causing problems. I would like to use 12% bleach, but the nearset store to buy it is 30 miles away, and we have a Walmart 5 miles away and on the way home from work, so I really want this to work with 6%. The wife is really giving me the evil eye though and said yesterday ...... 'I hope you don't have to order anymore of those valve things, you already got too much invested in something that doesn't work.' Sooooo, I have to be very sneaky about it.
Since I already did the upgrade for 3/8 tubing, I stopped at Lowes and found 1/4"NPT to 1/4" tube barbs to put in the threaded holes I made and convert back to the 1/4 tubing for the other valves. I hope they don't restrict flow too much, especially since they are 90 degree elbows, but that is all I could find. I also think I need to get this going pretty soon, since the only 1/4 NPT plugs I could find were the iron gas pipe plugs. That was to plug the holes in my pipes while I get it ready to re-install. I am sure they will start to rust fairly soon.
IF all that doesn't work, I just may post a video on youtube of me destrying this thing with an axe.
(right about now, that would feel sooooooooooooooooo good! ) Now, I need to work up the courage to do the acid wash. I have a friend that was burnt very badly with acid (not sure what kind) and I have a healthy fear of anything acid. (or should that be 'Unhealthy' fear?)
Miranda -- You found just what I suspected you'd find. The bouyancy of the float should never be overcome by water on top of the float (within practical circumstances).
I can understand how the outlet side check valve leaking through would cause it to overflow. It's the randomness of it that puzzles me. I could well understand it if it happened right after the pump shut down but you say that it can go hours after the pump shuts down before the level starts rising.
The check valve on the inlet side is for installations where the LQ is above the water level. It prevents the LQ from draining back into the piping letting air to get into the plumbing and causing the pump to lose prime. It's not needed on installations where the LQ is below the water level.
Barnyard -- I can understand your frustration. When using Muriatic Acid dilute it 10:1 and wear eye protection. Protecting your eyes is the most important thing you can do.
I use 6% Great Value brand bleach and don't have WS so it can be done. I've even tried everything to get it just to see if I could figure out what causes it, so it's obviously in the chemistry of the pool water and not in the application or how fast you pour the bleach. I've used 10% and 12.5% bleach also and not got it. One thing I do have is very low CH (120 - 130) and that might be the major factor but we don't have enough data to support that.
The thing I hope doesn't happen is that it just starts working and we don't know why. I know those of you that have problems don't care if that happens and if it does I'll feel good for you but the best scenario at this point would be for one of you to find something definitive that's causing your problem and fix it.
I can understand how the outlet side check valve leaking through would cause it to overflow. It's the randomness of it that puzzles me. I could well understand it if it happened right after the pump shut down but you say that it can go hours after the pump shuts down before the level starts rising.
The check valve on the inlet side is for installations where the LQ is above the water level. It prevents the LQ from draining back into the piping letting air to get into the plumbing and causing the pump to lose prime. It's not needed on installations where the LQ is below the water level.
Barnyard -- I can understand your frustration. When using Muriatic Acid dilute it 10:1 and wear eye protection. Protecting your eyes is the most important thing you can do.
I use 6% Great Value brand bleach and don't have WS so it can be done. I've even tried everything to get it just to see if I could figure out what causes it, so it's obviously in the chemistry of the pool water and not in the application or how fast you pour the bleach. I've used 10% and 12.5% bleach also and not got it. One thing I do have is very low CH (120 - 130) and that might be the major factor but we don't have enough data to support that.
The thing I hope doesn't happen is that it just starts working and we don't know why. I know those of you that have problems don't care if that happens and if it does I'll feel good for you but the best scenario at this point would be for one of you to find something definitive that's causing your problem and fix it.
It held 6 hours with the stronger spring installed in the check valve....no overflows. I don't know if it is a coincidence, or solution. Not a very good solution because it brings down the max flow to 2-3 (which defeats the purpose of the 3/8" upgrade), and I don't know if the spring will hold up to Chlorine. (It is 1/2 of a carburetor spring) I'm going to let it stay like this a while and see what happens, then I'll try cutting the spring a little shorter to see if I can improve flow while preventing overflow. Therin lies the delicate balance......
Bama, are you using the 3/8" US Plastics check valve? Or something else?
Bama, are you using the 3/8" US Plastics check valve? Or something else?
Yes, I'm using the 3/8" FNPT black check valve just like the one shown in this thread. They were out of 1/4" when I ordered so I just ordered the 3/8" and two 3/8" MNPT to 3/8" barbed tubing adaptors.
I imagine a lot of people are using the US Plastics 3/8 check valves. I can't believe it is only me and Miranda having problems with them.even if it is WS causing mine to fail (and I am not convinced it is), it was such a MINOR amount that it should not have caused failure that quickly. Miranda, how long have you had yours? I am wondering if they recently changed something in making them, or maybe there is a bad batch of them out there?
At any rate Bama, I know the end result of this should be for us to figure this out so we all learn something from it, but I am all for me and Miranda waking up tomorrow with our problems mysteriously cured.
If nothing else, we have learned a lot about things that DON'T cause the problem.
At any rate Bama, I know the end result of this should be for us to figure this out so we all learn something from it, but I am all for me and Miranda waking up tomorrow with our problems mysteriously cured.
If nothing else, we have learned a lot about things that DON'T cause the problem.
I completely understand how you feel. I would be the same way if I were in your shoes. :-D
The bad batch idea is why I'd like to see a different style of check valve tried.
The bad batch idea is why I'd like to see a different style of check valve tried.
I am going to order the different check valves when I get home I guess. If they work, I am still not sure if that has told us we had a bad batch of check valves or not. I might go ahead and put the original stuff back in while I am waiting for the new style and see if those valves fail or not. If I can get to it today or tomorrow.
I ordered my valves on 5/23/2010, however, I just checked my order and found that I have the 1/4" valve with the 3/8" barbs (#22231 same valve and setup recommended in the conversion thread) This is the link for the ones I ordered:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=36845
Could that be the problem, if these are designed for 1/4" tubing, there may be too much water force for them. Even though lots of people have installed these, how many had aboveground pools? The only person who has come forward without a problem on an aboveground pool is Bama, and he has the 3/8" valve.
UPDATE: The specs on the two valves are the same. "Maximum Operating Pressure — 125 psi. Maximum Operating Temperature — 140°F. Seat Area Open Diameter — .438. The 694 Series Check Valve covers a wide range of air and fluid applications. The 694 Check is a compact design with a 1/3 psi cracking pressure, high flow rate, and a positive seal at very low back pressure or slight vacuum"
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=36845
Could that be the problem, if these are designed for 1/4" tubing, there may be too much water force for them. Even though lots of people have installed these, how many had aboveground pools? The only person who has come forward without a problem on an aboveground pool is Bama, and he has the 3/8" valve.
UPDATE: The specs on the two valves are the same. "Maximum Operating Pressure — 125 psi. Maximum Operating Temperature — 140°F. Seat Area Open Diameter — .438. The 694 Series Check Valve covers a wide range of air and fluid applications. The 694 Check is a compact design with a 1/3 psi cracking pressure, high flow rate, and a positive seal at very low back pressure or slight vacuum"
The specs are the same and mine is installed in the same orientation as yours. There should be no appreciable difference in our systems.
I ordered mine around the first of June. I just ordered the part number in the conversion thread, so I guess I really got the 1/4 valves? I guess I didn't pay that much attention. I would like to see a show of hands of the people that bought these valves and used them on above grounds and have had no problem.
Miranda bought them the last of May and you bought yours the first of June. That's close enough to be from the same batch. Wouldn't that be weird?
I could have actually ordered them the last of May, the last email I had was a shipping confirmation that had June 2nd on it. It does sound like a coincidence doesn't it? I won't say it yet, but we may be onto the cause of this thing.
USplastic also has that style check valve. Bruce & Sal may match their price though.
Well, the new valves arrived and I got them installed yesterday after work. I finished around 4 :00pm or so. I had cleaned the tank, painted it, acid washed the valves and flow meter, put in new hose, the whole 9 yards. I wanted a fresh start. My pump is timed to turn off around 8:00 pm. Around 9:00 pm, I went to check on it and the dadgummed thing was overflowing again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shut off the flow valves and called it a night since I was so fed up with dealing with this thing.
Today, went down and the new check valve IS leaking. I took a page out of Miranda's book and put some food coloring in the line between the check valve and the tank on the out side with the pump off, and before I could stand up, the food coloring was sucked right into the tank. Well, at least I know for sure where the over flow problem is coming from now. I am wondering if the pressure of the water from an ABG pool is enough to overcome the check valves and cause them to leak. Since we really didn't get anybody to admit they were using the LQ on an ABG pool, how many are there really out there that are successfully using it? I was suspecting white stuff before, but with everything cleaned out and starting from scratch, the tank overflowed after only having this new valve installed less than 5 hours. That leads me to believe it isn't WS causing it, but some other cause, or the valves aren't supposed to be used for this application.
I am going to re-install the original check valve and see how it works. I might have to live with the reduced flow rate if they work. I will let you know how they do.
I shut off the flow valves and called it a night since I was so fed up with dealing with this thing.
Today, went down and the new check valve IS leaking. I took a page out of Miranda's book and put some food coloring in the line between the check valve and the tank on the out side with the pump off, and before I could stand up, the food coloring was sucked right into the tank. Well, at least I know for sure where the over flow problem is coming from now. I am wondering if the pressure of the water from an ABG pool is enough to overcome the check valves and cause them to leak. Since we really didn't get anybody to admit they were using the LQ on an ABG pool, how many are there really out there that are successfully using it? I was suspecting white stuff before, but with everything cleaned out and starting from scratch, the tank overflowed after only having this new valve installed less than 5 hours. That leads me to believe it isn't WS causing it, but some other cause, or the valves aren't supposed to be used for this application.
I am going to re-install the original check valve and see how it works. I might have to live with the reduced flow rate if they work. I will let you know how they do.