Hayward Heater Pilot Problem

[chadley58]

Hi everyone, I have an issue with the pilot on my Hayward inground pool heater. I have replaced the old one with a new one...part HAXPLT931. Slight problem.....I couldn't get the pilot tube off the old pilot assembly. I completely stripped the hex connection trying to use wrenches, vice grips, etc. instead of worrying about that connector, I went to Home Depot and got a replacement pressure connector that seemed to work just fine. I put the new pilot tube on using the new connector supplied with the HAXPLT931 part and one connector I purchased at Home Depot.

I was optimistic my troubles were over. I have my heater wide open on the top for ease of access. I lit a match, held down the pilot button/switch and I singed all of the hair on my arm off. The gas coming out of the pilot hole next to the thermopile is obviously too much. It is creating a huge flame. Somehow there is too much gas flowing through the tube. I thought about crimping the tube quite a bit, then decided against the jury rig in favor of "doing it right". The only problem is....I don't know what the issue is. I am thinking somehow I must be missing an orifice of some sort, but I don't recall ever seeing one. I know the connector I got from Home Depot is the right size and don't believe I have any larger gas flow that I can tell.

I am a little disappointed that the new part only came with one of the connectors. IMO, it should always come with both because you can't assume you will be able to get the old one off.

Help!! I can take pictures if needed.

 

[ps0303]

The new part came with a new aluminum tube right?

Is your system natural gas or propane?

Always use a long BBQ lighter.

Normally I remove the old tube from the gas valve and then using the new parts that came with the pilot, I reconnect the new tube to the gas valve.

 

[chadley58]

It is natural gas. I took the old tube off the gas valve but couldn't get the connector off. I even took it to a local pool store and they cut the tube apart but couldn't get the little part off, hence the trip to Home Depot.

I wonder if that compression fitting somehow reduced the gas flow. I don't see how that could be as the small part we couldn't get off actually goes over the 1/4 tube. I wonder if that little connector/compression fitting can be ordered separately from Hayward or somewhere else.

 

[ps0303]

The new pilot assembly should have come with a new compression nut that gets put on the tube and then screwed into the gas valve. The old compression nut isn't going to come off. You have to use the new one that comes with the assembly.

No the compression fitting does not reduce the gas flow. There is a piece in the pilot assembly that does that.

So where is the flames shoot from?

You take the new assembly and screw the new tube onto it with the supplied fitting. Then you use the supplied fitting and put it on the other end and screw it onto the gas valve.

 

[chadley58]

I will take some pics. For some reason the gas assembly seems to be putting out out way too much gas.

I will also video the lightIng of the pilot. I think you will be amused. ?

 

[ps0303]

No need to show me lighting the pilot. I work in these units all day long and know what things happen when something isn't done right. Plus you might blow yourself up and thus I will never get a response from you. LOL

I bet you are missing the orifice piece that is supposed to be in the pilot assembly. It regulates the flow of gas. Maybe somehow it came out.

Here is what it looks like.

 

[chadley58]

An orifice was in the new pilot assembly? or in the gas valve? If it was in the pilot assembly I assume it has fallen out. Any suggestions on how to get a replacement? is this a standard item I can buy from a hardware store? I definitely do not want to buy another whole pilot assembly. Those suckers are expensive!

That is a lot of questions.

 

[ps0303]

I doubt you would find one at a hardware store. Too specific of an item. Double check to make sure it is missing. If you unscrew the brass coupler on the end of the pilot assembly it should be there.

Also my guess is you don't have the pilot tube inserted all the way and tightened correctly. Try pulling the tube out from the pilot end plus if it's lose it will flare up when lit.

No offense but this type of repair really should be done by someone that is trained. You could have really had a bad fire on your hands of worse.

 

[chadley58]

Ok. Got a new pilot assembly orifice and installed it. Works like a champ. Now......problem 2.

once the pilot lit, I turned the gas valve to "on" and nothing happened. That had happened last year a few times, so I jumpered across two of the terminals last year and it fired right up. This yr, however, when I jumpered across the two terminals it immediately cut out the pilot gas. I relit the pilot and tried it again but had the same outcome. Any thoughts? I really don't want to replace the gas valve. Help.....please

 

[danpik]

Jumpering across the two terminals to get it to work meant that somewhere in the safety circuit something was not closing properly to complete the circuit. Not a good way to run the heater. Now if it is cutting the pilot lite out I would suspect that you have a bad thermopyle. You can test the output from it with a volt/OHM meter. Ideally it should read 750 MV. The will run as low as 400ish but not well.

Williamsville, Where?

 

[ps0303]

+1 on what Danpik said. You need to go thru your safeties to see which one is affecting the unit. Some of the common issues can be a bad pressure switch or not enough flow due to possibly a valve, if you have them, isn't closed or open all the way allowing proper flow to the heater. A bad thermostat or even a bad on/off switch.

 

[chadley58]

Williamsville, ny. Danpik, are you a service tech or just a nice guy trolling the forums? . Fixing my heater = beer. lol

i should have have been a little more specific. When I said I jumpered across terminals, I only did that for like 3 seconds until the heater fired up, then I pulled the wire back. I didn't leave it jumpered all the time.

question....isn't the thermopile one of the items that is included on the "new" pilot assembly? Maybe it is possible I got a bad thermopile with the new part? If the thermopile isn't on the pilot assembly, then what is it? And do you have pictures of where I can connect my meter to to check output? Sorry...lots of questions.

 

[danpik]

Here is a layout, (simplified) of a basic Milivolt heater.



Terminals d & e are the thermopyle connections. Measure across those with a Volt/Ohm meter and see what voltage you have. Ideally it should read 750 Mv. Then read across e & f. You should have the same reading when the heater is on "call for heat" If the reading is lower, there is some resistance in the circuit. Mostly caused from dirty connections on the sensor terminals. If the reading is zero then one or more switches in the safety circuit have not closed.

This is what a thermopyle looks like

Williamsville, ny. Danpik, are you a service tech or just a nice guy trolling the forums? . Fixing my heater = beer. lol

A little of both. In a past life I did a lot of furnace/boiler installs and service. Still do some on a limited basis. Some pool, mostly home though I figure with my experience I can still help people out

i should have have been a little more specific. When I said I jumpered across terminals, I only did that for like 3 seconds until the heater fired up, then I pulled the wire back. I didn't leave it jumpered all the time.

I assumed that as well. I usually write the comment I did for others who may interpret it as a way to run the heaters. I can't even begin to count the number of times I have walked into a house to do service work on a furnace and found safeties jumpered out. This is one of the reasons I got out of the business. Long story short, too much liability when you touch something and someone after you decides to mess with it.

 

[chadley58]

Hey Danpik, I am going outside today with my multimeter. Would you consider coming to fix my heater? It wouldn't be for free.

i pm'd you, but maybe you didn't get it.

 

[chadley58]

OK....it is confirmed, I have no idea what I am doing. I took my multimeter out there and didn't get any readings that made much sense to me. But I did take a few pics to show you my setup.

One thing I noticed is that there is no connection off the PP terminal. Is that normal? Same behavior now....though when I jumper across TH/TH-PP the heater fired up. as soon as I remove the wire the gas shuts off, though pilot stays lit. If I jumper across TH-PP/PP the gas/pilot shuts off.

 

[danpik]

The fact that the heater fires when the jumper is in place says the gas valve and the power pile are both good.

In your picture the red and white wires (PP and TH/PP) are from the powerpile. This is where the electricity come from to power the gas valve. The TH/PP connection is just a connection point on the gas valve for the Powerpile and safety circuit wiring. So...here is what happens in that circuit...

Power comes from the powerpile and goes to the TH/PP terminal. Power then goes out thru the white wire on the TH/PP terminal to the safety switches (pressure, temp, etc...). When all of those are closed (good connection, turned on, however you want to think of it)power is routed back to the TT terminal at the gas valve with the black wire. When this happens, the circuit is complete and turns the gas valve on. You need to follow that black and white wire out into the unit and see which switch is not closing. You can test these with your jumper wire or with a volt meter.

Sorry I can't get up there to look at this thing for you. I don't plan to be in your area for at least 3-4 weeks and then it is to fly our for a family vacation.

I took my multimeter out there and didn't get any readings that made much sense to me.

What readings did you get. Can you post a picture of the readings you get when you have the meter connected?

 

[chadley58]

Well.....For anyone reading this that is thinking about permanently bypassing all of the safety valves....think again. I bypassed the terminals and would turn the heater on and off manually. My pool pump is on a timer, so I simply removed the "off" switch on the timer so the pump wouldn't shut off automatically. I feared if the pump shutoff while the heater was on in the current bypassed mode then the heater wouldn't shut off. It was working great, pool heater was on complete manual mode. I remembered to always turn off the heater prior to turning the pump off manually.

We went on vacation for 8 days and the heater was off, so I put the timer off switch back in place for the pump to make sure it ran 5 hours each day while we were away. We got back yesterday and I turned the heater on to get the pool back up to swimmable temps....Problem is...you guessed it, I forgot to take the timer stop switch out. When the pool pump kicked off with the timer last night, the heater stayed on....no water movement....bad news.....I woke up this morning, saw the pool was completely calm and realized the heater was probably still firing. I went outside and saw the heater mostly melted down, 8 feet of my house siding melted, and my filter housing a bit mangled. I am sick to my stomach....I called in a homeowner's insurance claim already, but I am fearful they won't cover anything because it was my fault. Not sure if anyone has had experience with this kind of thing....but would like to know what, if anything, they will cover.

Please don't brow-beat me....I made a mistake and feel really badly about it. I knew the risks when I bypassed my system and thought I had it under control. I am posting now during the worst part of it to warn others.....only bypass your safety switches temporarily. Please learn from my huge mistake.