5 boys and a grain bin...new AGP build DIY

[firstladykatie]

After 2 months of failing to find anyone to install an oval with deep end, I am now building a DIY from-scratch 36'x52" round AGP from free grain bin rings. It's me (an unhandy mom) and 5 boys ages 11-14. Should be fun.

My sons are using a laser level to sink a ring of pavers into the ground by hand. The wall will sit on this ring without any bottom track like a commercial kit has. I'm probably going to put a foot of gravel and maybe a drain around the outside of wall, because our yard is flat with poor drainage. In the future, I would love to add solar heat or SWG. Next summer, I hope to have a jumping/lounging deck on one side with storage underneath. But in the short-term, I just want to get it up and running before July.

I am looking for information on a variety of next steps:

1) WALL FOUNDATION AND INTERIOR LEVELING: We "cut down" the high spots about 4" to get the ring of pavers level with the low spots. Rather than shave down the entire center of the circle, can I "build up" the interior level with the sand layer? I'm going to dig a deep section, but is there a reason I have to shave and level the rest of the floor with such a minimal slop? Seems like adding extra sand in the lower spots would be a lot simpler, but I don't want to do something stupid I will regret.

2) PUMP SIZE: For a 30k-32k gallon pool, do I need a higher speed pump or 1.5 hp is plenty? Is there a relevant article here to read?

3) EQUIPMENT PLACEMENT: I want to explore putting the pump and filter near my house (30' away?) instead of next to the pool. Does anyone have advice or suggestions of what I should read here?

4) FILTER AND PUMP SELECTION: I gather that Hayward is well regarded. I know that I need the biggest sand filter I can buy. I don't know if it is important to have them be the same brand, in a combo unit or separate, whether some kinds work better with timers and The Liquidator (we travel a lot, and since I can't do SWG just yet, I think this might be a good investment for us). Any and all advice appreciated, or tips on relevant threads to read.

5) ADAPTING TO THIS KIND OF WALL: The bin sheets will be bolted from the inside out. I will duct tape the bolt heads and the seams. I am trying to find some kind of roll of cushioning for the inside of the wall before adding the liner (styrofoam? bubble wrap? foil-wrapped insulation?). The liner will be an overlap. There is a rubber-type split-tube for grain bins that I can get free and can place over the edge of the wall UNDER the liner. Or I have also heard I can buy some kind of "capping" in 4' lengths from a pool store to put OVER the liner. (I don't know if the first kind of tubing would also work over the liner.) Does anyone know anything about buying just the top-ledge pieces and installing them on a wall that didn't come in a kit? I am trying to envision whether I care about having an actual ledge, or if just a safe top edge is all I need.

Thank you.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I'm sorry, I don't have any answers to those questions but... I sure am proud of you!! This will be such a great memory for those boys.

Can you post pictures as you move along this building process and let us see?

Also, please add your state to the profile. THanks

(I bet some of our AGP folks will be able to chime in soon with some input)

 

[Casey]

I really want to watch you do this. Please post pics!

 

[kimkats]

Sounds exciting! We REALLY need pictures of what you are working with. The top ring where the liner will overlap so we have an idea how wide it is. Having a tape measure so we can really see it would be purrfect.

-Equipment-the reason most people buy the same name brand is because if 3 are bought together the warranty may be extended to 3 years. I will leave that up to you to explore by calling the companies or looking on their websites to find out the ins and outs of that.

-Equipment by the house-there is no link for this question. BUT you can look at some of the builds in Under Construction to get an idea of what others have done. The search box at the top of this page will do a search of only TFP threads. It is awesome!

-floor-again a picture of what you are working with would be helpful-BUT you will have to have a "cove" for the same reason a store made above ground pool.......to keep the liner inside the walls. Coves can be made from sand or foam. Have a look at this:

How To Assemble an Above Ground Pool - Part 3 - Floor Pad & Cove - INYOPools.com


-wall foam-look at this:

Search for: pool wall foam - INYOPools.com


I hope this helps to get you started. I will check back with you to see the pictures.

Kim:cat:

 

[cowboycasey]

Hi there Sorry about not finding anyone to help..

1. you really want to dig down, yes adding sand will work but if water were to get under the liner it could wash the sand out and then you would have holes or divits under your liner and the only way to fix that would be to empty the pool and start over and we don't want that

2. Are you going to have 220v to the equipment pad or just a plug in? I have an awesome 2 speed 1 hp pump recommendation (the one I bought) but it is only 220v.. Let us know if you want recommendations on pump and filter, just let us know what we have to work with.. 110, 220, plug in, hardwire and so on...

3. You can dig ditches and put the 2 inch hard pipe and run it that far with no issues, mine are run about 25 feet away...

4. they do not have to be the same, most people buy the combo as it is cheaper but that is not always the best choice for you, its the best for them....

5. You could use pool wall foam, it is only 1/8 inch thick but it should protect the liner Amazon.com : Gladon 100-Feet Roll Above Ground Pool Wall Foam - 1/8 in. x 48 in. : Swimming Pool Liners : Patio, Lawn Garden

Some kind of top is needed to protect the liner and a person from falling on the edge.. if it does both of those jobs I think you will be good, A deck up to the edge will also work to keep kids from using the ledge to stand on or something crazy... below is how I did mine, it is the intex but it works the same...

I know its a long thread but check out my pool build, you will be doing many of the same thing with leveling and hard pipe.. New above ground oval 18x33 install

I hope this helps

 

[Michcakes]

Look forward to pics on this one!

 

[firstladykatie]

Thanks for all the responses! I will try to post pics (it looks harder than digging the pavers in level!). I'll start with one of the crew from yesterday's digging:

So far, so good...

DELIVERY: the grain bin panels arrived today, with a slight twist. We are using full size 44" high sheets and adding 9" high strips (trimmed from full size ones with a plasma cutter) to get 52". Unexpectedly, they sent full-size panels that have a flange at the bottom, which means they have to go on the ground and the cut strips on top (opposite of my original plan to keep cut edge on bottom). The plus is that this will probably make my wall extra stable. The down side is that I may have to use a grinder on this edge to make sure the top is not too sharp or get busy improvising plans for a ledge, etc. And I will now have a row of bolts just 9" under the top of the pool to look at or get scraped on. However, I'm thinking they'll be great for hooking a cover onto or even hanging towels on. I will take pics of the panels and width to show later when the sun comes back out and our monsoon subsides.

WEATHER: the kids got 20+ pavers sunk and leveled between rains (one perk of homeschooling is we can cancel algebra at a moment's notice whenever rain lets up and race outside to work). Ten left to sink later. Today I swapped out the two youngest boys (friends) for my 17yo daughter, which made the detail work on the pavers a much more efficient. We're supposed to get lots more rain, which will slow us in digging deep end and leveling shallow side and putting up the wall. But I hope the ongoing rain will help us check and see if our leveling changes much after settling.

ELECTRIC: Unbeknownst to me, I have a breaker that already has unused wire run (capped off and tied up in our basement during a remodel 8 years ago) which will reach to the spot where I wanted to place the pump and filter near the house. It is 110, according to the friend who came to look it over with me. His suggestion is to run a trench with water pipe and also wiring for an outlet at the future deck area. I'm thinking these boys will be digging all summer at this rate. I've started reading some reviews, and I want a 2-speed and 110. Really would love to know how much HP I need to go the extra 30' from house and clean a 36' 32K gallon monster...read about pumps in pool school and various other sites, and am pretty confused still. Also don't understand yet what else I need to allow for in planning the electricity and equipment and any future upgrades and extras.

WALL INSULATION: I haven't been able to find any that is taller than 48"...has anyone used it on a 52" wall...did you leave the space behind cove uninsulated, or the space at the top?

Not sure how to tell if the first picture is working, so I'll add one more of the site overview before we started sinking today's pavers.

Thanks again. Katie and the kid crew

 

[Dalf1990]

I'm super excited to see how your project turns out & wish you the very best of luck with it and hope it's easy as it can possibly be. I can't really offer any advice but since I'm planning my install I may have an answer to one of your questions. I have a 54" wall & like you said the foam only comes in 48" so from what I've read the cove will cover the bottom few inches then the wall foam will start there and go to the top.

Like I mentioned I'm by no means an expert, I'm just getting ready for my install so take this suggestion/advice with a grain of salt but I'm slightly concerned about your wall stability where you are going to be adding a 9" strip on top of your 44", because of the water pressure & all. I'm sure it can be done safely as long as you fasten it properly (how, I have no idea lol) But like you said it'll just be adding something that will scrape ya, but at the same time it'll be adding places where your liner could potentially be damaged on the inside of the wall, so I was thinking since you are digging for a deep end/area anyway, why not just dig all your shallow area (minus what the pool wall needs to set on) down the 9" you need. That much digging might be alot more work than attaching the 9" strip, but would probably ensure a more stable wall, less chance of liner damage & no scrapes

Sorry for being so long winded, I'm a talker lol

I'm eager to see your progress & hope you & the kid crew are swimming soon!

 

[needsajet]

Pullin' up a chair on this one. What a great project. I was thinking that stock tank suppliers might be a good place to look for the top edge (coping)

http://www.orderstorm.com/wordpress-ecommerce-images/cartimages/category_image_4240.jpg <--- is that somewhat like what you're working with? I know yours is larger diameter ring.

And to give everyone else an idea of what a grain bin looks like, here's one going up. I believe FirstLadyKatie is just doing the bottom ring, but correct me if I'm wrong. http://crowsnest.us/images/100_2020.JPG and a larger one with the top on getting jacked up http://www.agri-systems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/lifting-bin-with-jacks1.jpg and some finished ones http://www.brockmfg.com/uploads/photos/600/AF_0410SC_0506.jpg

 

[kimkats]

How did you know? That picture I wanted most was one of the kids working and THAT is the picture you started with! Happy face here!

A step at a time or paver in this case! LOL

You are going to run out of room for pics fast. There are two ways to get more space-become a supporting member CLICK HERE to Become a TroubleFreePool.com Supporter!! This gets your more picture space AND a discount on the test kit AND helps us keep the lights on around here. You can also use photo bucket or such but that always runs the risk of the pictures not sticking around for the future if the photo site goes bye-bye like some have.

I can't wait to see what you are working with!

Thanks Needs for sharing those pics. I can see a pool being built out of those but man that top edge would need some work to keep it safe!

Kim:cat:

 

[danpik]

Looks like an ambitious project.

On the electric...A free breaker and a coil of wire hanging in the basement is not a good starting place here. There are a lot of safety considerations to take into account.

One of the first things to look at is what is referred to as Bonding. A lot of people get this confused with grounding and sometimes intermix the two. The bonding for a pool is very specific as to what needs to be done. I your case, you, having an above ground pool with a lot of steel involved, will have to provide a min of 4 attachment points around the pool to connect to a bond wire buried 6-8" deep around the pool 16-20 inches out from the outside of the pool. Being a vinyl lined pool, a water bond is also needed and this will be connected to the perimeter bond wire as well. All pump,filter,heater equipment on the equipment pad must also be connected to this bonding grid.

As for the electrical service to the equipment, the NEC is very specific on rules that must be followed. Just grabbing a length of romex and pulling it out there will not pass any codes that exist today. My suggestion here is to hire a qualified electrician to help with this part. He will know what the inspectors in your area want to see. No offence to your friend, but I don't think, by your comment, he is qualified to do this work safely

 

[cowboycasey]

Pump and filter

I found these 2 that I think will work great for you..

Amazon.com : Hayward S244T ProSeries 24 Garden
Amazon.com : Hayward SP15932S Power-Flo Matrix 1-1/2-Horsepower 2-Speed Above-Ground Pool Pump : Swimming Pool Water Pumps : Patio, Lawn Garden

they are a 24 inch sand filter and a 1.5 hp 2 speed 110V pump

 

[WASP]

You have me curious. I'll be watching this build.

 

[MRBDDB]

This is such an exciting build! I am so intrigued to watch and hats off to you for taking on such a challenging job and your kids wanting to pitch in and help. That is going to be one huge pool! Will definitely be watching this, keep the pictures coming!

 

[firstladykatie]

THANKS: to all of you for sharing thoughts and encouragement! To Kim, I would be happy to become a member and support TFP...I have learned a lot here (and I need to learn a lot more!!). I'll get on that. To Needsajet, thanks for the links of bin pics. I was going to look for a pic of some on our family farm, but you beat me. I live in a small city now, but I'm still a farm girl at heart and forget it's not common to all.

WALL SIZE: Dalf1990, I'm a talker too, so thanks for the words. And thanks for the suggestion of deeper digging and avoiding the add-on strip. I was intending to do that, actually with a 33" wall instead of the 44" size. But my brothers (the farmers donating the walls) actually thought that the staggered panel effect (visible in the first and last photos on Needsajets' links) would make the structure stronger. You're correct that it will multiply the number of bolt heads and seams I have to cover. And I'm still tempted by a shorter wall and deeper hole. So IF we end up letting a brother or friend bring in a backhoe, I'd consider it. If not, I don't think these boys can dig a 36' circle that deep...we will hit clay, Missouri temps will soar, rains will stop, and ground will get rock hard.

WALL INSULATION: Does anyone know if there is a product that is wider (taller) than 48"? So far, I haven't found any.

WALL COPING: I have priced pool coping in case I don't like the looks of the free grain bin coping available to me. Does anyone know what pieces would be required to add a ledge on top? Do normal AGP ledges rest on the support posts, or do they just attach to the top of the wall or?? I think (haven't double checked) that my bin panels are 12 gauge sheet metal?

ELECTRIC NEEDS/BONDING OPTIONAL?: Danpik, no offense taken at all. I am an information lover, and I want to be safe! My friend actually wired his own home (they lived with us while rebuilding their home after a tornado). My brothers do all their own electric (much of it around water with irrigation equipment), so I will share your comments with them and do some more reading too. I had thought bonding was optional? I confess I'm not eager to have to hire an electrician because when we remodeled years ago, I interviewed many and was not very pleased with the work ethic or results of the best one I finally chose. It would be easier if I knew one I trusted.

EQUIPMENT SELECTION/SIZE: Cowboycasey, thank you so much for the pump and filter recommendation. I will look at those tonight! I appreciate that! I'm full of ideas about landscaping and inviting hundreds of kids to swim in the next 10 years, but reading specs on motors and amps and flow and volts makes me fall asleep every night. I want to understand it and feel confident in it, but it's still a foreign language to me.

Off to study this stuff...thanks again for the tips.

 

[danpik]

ELECTRIC NEEDS/BONDING OPTIONAL?: Danpik, no offense taken at all. I am an information lover, and I want to be safe! My friend actually wired his own home (they lived with us while rebuilding their home after a tornado). My brothers do all their own electric (much of it around water with irrigation equipment), so I will share your comments with them and do some more reading too. I had thought bonding was optional? I confess I'm not eager to have to hire an electrician because when we remodeled years ago, I interviewed many and was not very pleased with the work ethic or results of the best one I finally chose. It would be easier if I knew one I trusted.

The thing you have to remember about electric is it does not care if your area does, or does not require inspections, or weather it is an option or not. The physics of what and how electricity works remain constant. Stray voltage around a pool varies depending on ground conditions, soil moisture etc. Any time there is a difference in voltage potential between two masses, they will want to even out. With a bond wire between them, the wire does the work, Without one, you become the conductor and will feel the shock. As for pool wiring... it has a lot more rules than home wiring. All wiring to a pool must be in conduit with insulated grounds. Usually, THWN wire is used for this. Also, all electrical associated with the pool must be GFCI protected now. NEC 680 will be your friend here

 

[kimkats]

Above Ground Pools - INYOPools.com

I found this to let you look around. BUT on my above ground pool it goes like this:

-Support post-fits onto bottom plate with a top plate on top of it

-The cap/ledge fits on the top plate and is screwed to it

-Finish cap-snaps over the top plate to cover the top plate and screws holding the cap/ledge to the plate.

I am hoping the link I gave you will give you an idea what I am talking about.

Here is an awesome link to show you what I am talking about:

How To Assemble an Above Ground Pool - Part 5 - Top Rails - INYOPools.com


Another neat thing about being a supporting member is you will get a discount from the company I am using for their links LOL

Kim:cat:

 

[gwegan]

Like Dan I am concerned about your electrical. Pool electric is different and often counter to residential electric. Bonding is not optional. There are special rules for pools that exist because water is a great electrical conductor. You need someone who understands NEC 280.

Additionally you mention a Liquidator for chlorine and a pool volume of 30kgal. Simply put that will not work. A liquidator tops out at about 22k. If you run your pump all the time you could increase that maybe even double it. But that would be running at high speed all the time. Very expensive except in certain parts of Texas.

I have serious engineering concerns about you pool. You pool at 30000 gallons will have 250000 lbs of water. That is a huge mass. That's probably more than your house weighs. And that mass is full of potential energy wanting to move!


AGPs are designed to use the mass of the water inside the pool to provide structural stability to the pool structure. In other words use the water itself to keep the water in place.

That means distributing the static force of the waters mass equally around the pool structure. That's where a round pool has a major advantage. The dynamic forces are the problem. If a big old fat guy like me jumps into the pool that creates unequal dynamic forces against the pool wall that may be very significant. Your pool structure must be able to distribute these forces so the pool does not colapase or otherwise fail. Most AGPs solve this problem with a cord around the top of the pool. In gunite pools it's called a bond beam. AGPs almost all have them they have different names -- like coping. But what may appear to be looks may be an important engineering feature of the pool. If you look closely you will see almost all AGPs have a mechanically connected ring at the top of the pool.

You must have something similar. A couple of wraps of 1/2 inch cable at the waterline for example. I'd put one at ground level, one halfway up and a double run at the top.

 

[firstladykatie]

Thank you, gwegan, I will take your suggestions into consideration. I have double-checked with bin dealers and owners (who fill them with thousands of tons of weight), and they assure me the bin walls and construction (thick steel and deep corrugation) are much stronger than a typical above ground pool wall. I'm hoping they are right. I will keep your suggestions in mind, and I am thankful you shared them! Sounds like I need to do some more reading about the liquidators...I knew they weren't a fool-proof answer, but didn't realize they wouldn't work for more than 22k. Thanks for sharing that. I believe SWG would be superior, but I need to figure out something to help me add chlorine when we are gone for a stretch of days (very frequently). I'm open to other suggestions.

Kim, thanks for the help!! I got to visit a deck today like the kind I want, and the owner let me look around his pool's ledge and posts. I will read your link this evening!

More rain in the forecast here, so I'll gladly read any suggestions from anyone while we're on hold. Thanks so much for the feedback!

 

[gwegan]

You are welcome. As I hope you can see our main goal here at TFP is to have people think about and take ownership of their pools.

On That note instead of a liquidator how about a Stenner Pump. While they are not cheap, they give you a great deal of freedom and don't have the size or other limitations of a Liquidator.

Locke Well and Pump Supply is a good source.