Why is my new SWCG making my pool cloudy with bubbles!?

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Kodiak

Kodiak

0
May 6, 2016
11
Nortampton/Massachusetts
As the title says, after years of struggling with fluctuating chlorine levels (even with the addition of an in-line chlorinator), I decided to make the switch to a Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Specifically, I had a Pentair Intellichlor installed. I know that air bubbles are a byproduct of the electrolysis process that occurs to convert the saltwater into chlorine, and there are a ton of previous posts about this very issue, but people in previous posts seem confused as to whether these bubbles are hydrogen gas or chlorine gas. The general consensus seems to now be that it is hydrogen, but it is still unclear as to why some pools have such a milky/cloudy color when being actively SWCGed, and others don't?


I've read comments about the lines/hoses not being long enough from the pump to the pool which can create problems. This is not the issue for me.


I've read other people talking about water flow issues -- some claiming that low flow causes an increased presence of bubbles, while others say it's actually the turbulence of faster flow that causes the bubbles. This also probably isn't the problem for me, as my SWCG unit has a flow sensor which indicates that the water flow is and has been appropriate.


The only other salient point that many people seem to bring up is water temperature, claiming that higher temps (85-95 degrees F) will create more bubbles with a lower dissolution rate. The problem with this philosophy is that my current water temperature is only 55F. ***WITH THAT SAID, it is valid to note that I am running my heating pump along with the SWCG, as the unit shuts itself off when the water temp is below 52F. Just to eliminate it as a possibility, I will switch the heating pump off in the morning while continuing to run the SWCG for a bit, in the event that the heater is indeed contributing to the problem.


Other less likely theories that I've come across are copper-based algaecides, calcium carbonate clouding, sand or DE escaping from the filter, algae that has run through the ionizer, etc.


I can confirm that it is definitely the SWCG and not my filter. If I turn the SWCG off, the jets immediately stop spewing white clouds. Likewise, when I turn it back on low, the clouds instantly start and the increase in volume and density each time the SWCG is cranked up a notch.


I am so frustrated! I had finally learned how to master our pool water quality with our previous in-line chlorinator setup... And while it was at times inconsistent, the water was crystal clear for us to enjoy 90%. I am REALLY hoping that I didn't just spend $1500 for nothing. Argh!


Any help would be much appreciated!!!
 

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:wave: Welcome to TFP!

Interesting, I remember one other case like this way back when I first joined the forum. I do not recall the remedy.

Can you post a full set of test results?

I am surprised the SWG is working at all with water that cold actually.
 
What are your pump specs?

Is the cell mounted vertically or horizontal?

How old is the cell and is it clean?

Running pumps at lower flow rates does cause bubbles to be returned to the pool. The SWG will still work if it has enough flow for the gas to not build up and I believe it is only around 15 GPM for your SWG.

Here is another thread that had the exact same issues as your SWG, Cloudy water from pool return when SWG running.
 
Kodiak,

I also have a salt system. However, at the start of the season when the water is that cold I simply add some bleach. It simply isn't worth fighting temperatures to run your salt system inconsistently at the beginning of the season in a climate such as ours. You also (pending your chemistry) likely wont be losing to much chlorine and I find it isn't much of an issue.

Get the chemistry right, throw on that solar blanket and wait until the water temp hangs around 65 consistently and then enjoy the advantages of that salt system.
 
This does not (I think) address your bubbles, but may ultimately help in other ways...but first off, welcome to TFP ;)

If you were using an inline chlorinator with pucks, I'm betting you're not presently familiar with the TFP method of pool care at this point. (TFP pool care uses the science of FC:cya ratio to ensure constant sanitation, which requires that cya is not a moving target. Pucks have cya in them, so make it close to impossible or at least difficult to do so.) Optimally, it also requires an FAS/DPD test kit that can read cya as well as FC accurately, eg the Taylor k2006 specifically or the Tft100.

So, when I refer to TFP-recommended swg settings, I'm not sure if you'll be able to confirm, BUT: Is your cya level 70-80? Are you keeping your ph between 7.6-7.8? Are you attempting to run at an FC of 4-5 ppm? What is your calcium? Is your salt level at the ideal rate for your swg and is it reading as such?

What other products have you used in the pool? Have you used things like "Backup" algaecide that has a suficant properties (changes water a bit, can foam...) Or any floc on opening?

Its hard to dx a problem like this onsite let alone remotely, but armed with some good info, I'm pretty sure we can help you get to a good place with the SWG one way or another. So don't despair ;)

I'm not sure about Pentair, but my new swg (hayward aquarite) will shut off at 50 degrees and not produce chlorine.

Maybe the first step would be to shut it off, get FC up to 5 or 6 with liquid chlorine,make sure all the water parameters are inline, warm up the water to about 70, then run it for a day to see if it behaves more normally. Then you've ruled out any quirks relating to baseline optimal operating conditions. If its still misbehaving, then further digging may be in order.
 
Welcome to TFP, I love me some SWG's...

I am also surprised your SWG is working in cold water, I usually do not turn mine on until my temps are above 65 degrees but it may be happy that your running your heater while it is running... post up some numbers and we will get you going.. :)
 
Oh my gosh -- thank you for these replies! It is the middle of the night here and I'm on new Daddy duty, so I'll be sure to read through all of this again in the morning when I'm a bit less foggy!!

@Jblizzle: I am working on getting myself a better test kit!! @Swampwoman recommended the K2006. Do you agree?

@Swampwoman: that was insanely helpful. And yes, unfortunately I did use both cheap algaecides and clarifier (against my better judgement) when i opened the pool this year. I suspect the foaming is from this. I shocked the pool today to try to help things along. I'm wondering if I should use some SparkleUp or an alternative filter-aid to help the sand filter get some of these fine particles...

@Richard320: If my current test strips are correct, the PH and Alkalinity are both very low, not high. Does that change things? I'm planning on getting a sample over to my local pool store for testing tomorrow. I'll post numbers as soon as I get my hands on them and/or when my new kit gets delivered. If you have any input on a kit, I'd appreciate it!

@Cowboycasey: Thank you in advance!


************

A few follow up questions:

With regards to the test kits, should I just go with the Taylor K2006? Do I also need the K-1766 salinity tester?

Has anyone heard anything about the LaMotte 2056 ColorQ Pro7 Digital Pool Tester? It is more expensive but gets great reviews and is supposedly wicked accurate.

What about any of the less expensive PoolMaster products that also get stellar reviews on Amazon (such as the PoolMaster 22260 5-Way Test Kit)?

Finally, does anyone have a shopping list of the pool chemicals that they stock up on and/or keep on hand? And where do you purchase those chemicals? I'm so used to relying on the pool store for both testing as well as the corresponding chemicals, but I'd like to break free of that constant rip off! But with that said, I'm not sure where to start -- example: where the heck does one even find Soda Ash!?

Any and all suggestions are much appreciated. You all rock the casbah!!
 

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@Richard320 -- this is a really interesting theory. Yes, the bubbles do rise to the surface, but they certainly take their time in doing so. The only thing I can compare it to is the opposite of fog. If fog is tiny little molecules of moisture in the air, this is the exact opposite. But the little bubbles of air have the same effect in the water as fog does in the air. Does that make sense? The higher the SWCG, the denser the fog.

I had read a post from a few years back where someone had actually taken a lighter to the surface of the water over the bubbles only to find them highly flammable. I'm not going to try that, but it's the reason that I had begun thinking that it must be hydrogen gas... Which I had assumed was being created by one of the chemicals in the pool passing through the electricity of the SWCG. I thought perhaps it was a chemical in one of the algaecides or something.

As I mentioned in a previous reply, my test strips are telling me the PH is quite low, but I'm awaiting confirmation of that tomorrow. With that said, where would this higher PH that you're referring to be (that would then mix with the lower PH pool water)? And where would the calcium you mentioned be coming from?

Thank you for your help!
 
The TF100 is a better deal than the K2006. Forget the color q, search the forum. Forget about the cheap kits, they don't have the required FAS-DPD chlorine test. The Taylor salt test would be a good idea.

We don't stock up on chemicals, what we need is determined by good test results. The only thing you might need is liquid chlorine and muriatic acid after you are balanced.
 
Congrats on new daddy duty, You are probably on a tight budget so I don't want you to waste your money on something you do not need.

So, it sounds like you want to do this correct the first time and I love that, here is the best kit and best way to get your problem fixed :)

Go here :) TFTestkits.net

Check the box next to

Salt test K-1766
XL option ( I always get this one because you start out testing A lot, but again you do not have to )
Speedstir ( this little gem is worth every penny for testing, but you do not have to have it)

This will get you and us to where we know what is going on with your pool, then we can get you a nice sparkly pool :) That also puts you into the free shipping zone

How does that sound
 
Kodiak said:
@Richard320 -- this is a really interesting theory. Yes, the bubbles do rise to the surface, but they certainly take their time in doing so. The only thing I can compare it to is the opposite of fog. If fog is tiny little molecules of moisture in the air, this is the exact opposite. But the little bubbles of air have the same effect in the water as fog does in the air. Does that make sense? The higher the SWCG, the denser the fog.

I had read a post from a few years back where someone had actually taken a lighter to the surface of the water over the bubbles only to find them highly flammable. I'm not going to try that, but it's the reason that I had begun thinking that it must be hydrogen gas... Which I had assumed was being created by one of the chemicals in the pool passing through the electricity of the SWCG. I thought perhaps it was a chemical in one of the algaecides or something.

As I mentioned in a previous reply, my test strips are telling me the PH is quite low, but I'm awaiting confirmation of that tomorrow. With that said, where would this higher PH that you're referring to be (that would then mix with the lower PH pool water)? And where would the calcium you mentioned be coming from?

Thank you for your help!
Click to expand...
What happens inside the SWG is NACl + H20 + electricity = H2 + NaOCl

NaOCl is Sodium Hypochlorite. Bleach. It's exactly the same process they use to make Clorox, just on a smaller scale and onsite.

The pH change is in the water leaving the SWG... that's why people are always dealing with rising pH on saltwater pools. The Calcium comes from the fill water as well as any "shock" powders the pool services dumped in to open the pool. Water evaporates but the Calcium stays behind and builds and builds.

Don't trust the test strips. If you have high chlorine it can bleach out the dyes and make it read wrong. And if you do the instinctual thing and set the strip on the chart to compare colors, the water can wick from pad to pad and alter the colors.
 
Again, thank you for your responses. I went to the local pool store today to have my water tested and wanted to post the results for you all.

Current Water Temp = 64F
Saturation Index = -2
TDS = 6000
CYA = 59
Total Chlorine = 15
Free Chlorine = 15
pH = 7.6
Total Alkalinity = 0
Adjusted Total Alkalinity = 0
Total Hardness = 190
Salt = 4500 (he said this isn't alarmingly high, even though my "high salt" light on the SWCG began flashing this morning...)
Borates = Not Tested
Copper = .3 (potentially residual from the cheap algaecide I had used?)
Copper from Products = Yes
Iron = .2 (he said this is low, yet I am getting Iron staining on the white fiberglass portions of my pool...)
Magnanese = No
Hazy = No
Couldy = No
Copper Stain = None
Iron Stain = No
Quat = Not Tested
Green Algae = No
Swampy = No
Black Algae = No
Mustard Algae = No
Slime/Mold = No
Filter Cleaned = 5/7/16
Plaster = No
Spring Opening = Yes
Temp < 32 = No
CD Sample = Not Tested
CD Standard = Not Tested
CD Test Type = None
Testing Equipment = BioGuard BioLab

Unfortunately, I will admit that I was talked in to adding 40lbs of BioGuard Balance Pak 100 to raise the Alkalinity, and then 3.5lbs of BioGuard Lo 'N Slo for the pH.


A few followup questions for you all...

(1) Was this the right move? Would you have done something different?
(2) I know I could have used Baking Soda instead of the Balance Pak, but wouldn't that have been a TON of Baking Soda!? What could I have used instead of the Lo 'N Slo?
(3) After reading your replies last night, I specifically asked them about CYA, but they told me to hold off on stabilizer for now? What are your thoughts?
(4) I had shut off the SWCG this morning and when I checked back on the pool a few hours later, the cloudiness from all of the air bubbles was gone. But tonight, several hours after adding the last of the BioGuard chemicals, I decided to flip the SWCG back on for a few minutes to see what would happen. Once again, the pool instantly clouded up. Why?
(5) My wife is worried that the pool is always going to be like this, and it is actually going to be MORE work to have the SWCG rather than the in-line chlorinator, simply because we are going to need to manage when it is operating, as noone is going to want to swim in a milky color pool. Even if we know that they are just bubbles. Is this going to stop happening? Or is it always going to be like this?

I ordered a TF100 so hopefully that will arrive shortly and I will be sure to post updated numbers when I get the water tested again by the pool store in a couple days.

This is one heck of a forum. It really feels like a community. Thank you.

And @Richard320 -- once again, massively helpful. Much appreciated.

And now for some much needed zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's.
 
Try and hold off adding any more of the pool store potions. Once your test kit arrives you can get good accurate test results. Without knowing what the actual conditions of your water, you can not get it properly balanced.

The way to reduce salt or calcium is by dilution. You would need to do a partial drain and refill with fresh water. Some people are able to time the water replacement to when it is raining.
 
Hate to tell you this, but those results are wrong. If alkalinity was zero, your pH can't be 7.6. It would be somewhere down in the 4s most likely. So either the pH test is wrong or the Alkalinity test is wrong. Metals I'd believe if you're seeing stains.

Testing CH is really easy. Get your own test kit. 10 ml pool water, 10 drops R-0010, 3 drops R-0011, and start counting drops of R-0012 until the color changes from pink to blue.

As an aside, Lo-n-slow is Baking Soda, just packaged up fancy and 7X as expensive. MSDS says "Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate" Google it. It's Baking Soda. Look at the registration number: 144-55-8 Compare to Arm & Hammer Baking Soda MSDS. 144-55-8.

4 lbs $2.35 at Walmart. $15.99 through your Amazon link. The cheapest price on Amazon is $6.99. The 40 bucks or so you overpaid is half the cost of a test kit. Not to mention that if they believe the pH is 7.6 there is no reason to add any acid. You've been pool-stored.

High salt is possible. To lower it requires water replacement. Get your own salt test and be sure.

We're kind of at a stalemate. We need test results we can trust and you don't have a test kit.
 
Welcome and glad to hear that your test kit is on the way :) Experts here will get you on track if you follow the advice here. Your SWG can do what it's meant to do and you'll be happy with it after getting on track with TFPC. In the meantime, I noticed a couple of your questions that got missed.

Would it be a ton of baking soda? PoolMath here would have suggested 20 pounds to go from 0 to 70, but as mentioned, no way your TA is zero anyway. Pool stores I've visited tried to ram my TA way high which would have caused me to buy more acid. The 40 pounds of balance pak is the same as 40 pounds of baking soda.

What could you have used instead of Lo 'N Slo? That is a pH reducer also known as Dry Acid or sodium bisulphate. It costs more and unnecessarily adds sulphate to your water, so experts here prefer muriatic acid (aka hydrochloric acid) which you buy from the hardware store, kept either with pool chems or in the aisle with mortars and other concrete products.

Yes, hold off on the cyanuric acid until you're confident with the number from your own testing.

Pool school here gives you all the safety aspects and recommended chemicals.

Regarding your better half's alarm bells: Is SWG more work? Is this going to keep happening? Not if you follow the advice from experts here. Don't expect it to get solved instantly. It will probably take a few weeks. You've got pool store potions in there (e.g. algaecide) and sulphates from the dry acid, so the experts here will decipher your test results, consider the other chems you've used, and get you on track. The better the information, the quicker it will all happen.

Take a look at that link that ping posted above. Same problem as this one so it's worthwhile reading.

And congrats on the new bub and daddy duty!!
 
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Good morning, Kodak. Your swg will be trouble free and your water will be better for it...tell your wife we promise this was not a mistake ;) You've been chlorinating with tabs, which means a moving target for your cya:FC ratio -- that meant unpredictable water quality, whether you knew it or not ;)

I don't trust that TA reading either, but if you've already added the bioguard, we'll just need to see where you landed when you get your kit.

Low n slow isn't needed if your ph is 7.6 right now, but going forward, you're better off adjusting high ph with Muriatic Acid instead because dry acid adds sulphates which swg mfgs generally recommend against.

If your ch is 190 per pool store (though something is off with those results given the impossible TA reading) then you dont need to adjust it ether...you have a vinyl pool...the vinyl itself doesn't need calcium, and 190 is fine fr swg and future metal treatment if necessary.

Once you've received your kits and post a full set of tests, we can help get you sorted.

However, pool stores, if using the salt meter, are usually close on salt level, but what's most important is what your swg thinks. If you're getting high salt warning, you need to dilute the water to get it back in operational range. You can do that while you're waiting for your kit ... Only drain enough to get around 3500 -- so 25 percent ish should be good. Be sure not to drain to lower than a foot in shallow end (you won't need to go that low anyway) in general with a vinyl pool.

The good news is the partial drain will also dilute some of the "elixirs" so this may also help on the bubble front ;) Plus, unless your source water has metals, it will reduce those by a quarter as well.

Regarding your iron at .2 (metal testing can usually be approaching accuracy at pool store) - are you on well water? What brand of pool salt was used?

Not that I want you buying more "elixirs" but you may benefit down the road from Jacks Magic Purple, which is a metal sequestrant formulated specifically for swg. But first, lets get the other parameters under control and see where we're at ;)
 

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