Metal stain issue's I think?? Need help please

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W

whitneystaley

0
Sep 5, 2015
26
Liberty, NC
Hi All seems I have open my pool this year and once getting it balanced I seem to have a light brown stain that appeared all over the bottom of my pool a few weeks later. It's not on the side's or around my ladder or along the edges where the walls meet the bottom of the pool.

I shock my pool weekly and the shock where it lays seems to get rid of the stain and make it blue in those spots.

I'm not really sure if it's a metal problem or a algae problem but since I don't see it on my ladder as usual then I think it's a stain issue. I'm running a perma salt system and just checked my copper levels and it appears to be between 0.4-0.5. I have reduced the dial on my perma salt down from 2.5 to 2 in case it was producing to much copper. This is what my pool place recommended for me to do and it's been about four to five days and I really don't see a big difference like they said I should, it may have improved a little bit but not much.

They recommended me to add this metal conditioner remover and another bag of shock and that what I have done so far.

Would it hurt to add something like ascorbic acid to my pool?

Thanks for all your help
Whitney And Connie
 
Hi Whitney (and Connie),

There are two quick ways to determine the origin of a stain (organic versus metal). The first is to take a small trichlor tablet (if you have one) and put it on the stain for about 5-10mins. If the stain lightens or disappears, then it's algae/organic. The other test involves crushing up a bunch of regular, store bought Vitamin C tabs (just vitamin C, no rose hips or extra stuff), putting the crush powder into a sock or nylon and then laying that sock or nylon on the stain. If the stain lightens or disappears, then it is a metallic stain. it is always best to perform both tests because trichlor is fairly acidic and can sometimes lighten metal stains making you think it's algae when it's not.

So now on to the other news - I'm not sure how much you have read on this site, but we are mostly dedicated to using chlorine as the only safe and effective pool sanitizer. TFP does not endorse any "alternative" sanitizing systems and we definitely do not endorse the use of any systems that put metal ions into pool water. Despite all of the pool industries wildly inaccurate and dubious claims with regard to "alternatives to chlorine" and "low chlorine" pools, the science is pretty definitive and clear - while metal ions can, in certain circumstances, act as a sanitizer, they are nowhere near as effective and broad-spectrum as chlorine. This goes for all alternative sanitation systems - metal ion, UV, ozone, etc. As you can see, you are getting staining in your pool. If it turns out to be metal stains, then the likely source is your metal ion system. For copper metal, any concentration of copper ions above 0.3ppm with the use of chlorine (the shock you are adding to your pool weekly) is a recipe for copper staining. Copper ions are not stable in solution when the pH is anywhere above 7.0. When you add an oxidizer like chlorine or non-chlorine MPS to the water, the copper ions will form copper hydroxide and copper oxide and that will stain your pool. Being a vinyl pool, the likelihood of staining is lower because metals don't really like to scale out onto polymers like vinyl, but they can if the concentrations and pH are high enough.

Anyway, we're happy to help you out where we can, but your not going to find a lot of support around this forum for metal ion system.

Good luck to you,

Matt
 
Matt,
I'll give it a try and see what happens. I went with the permasalt system because they sell it as a cheap easy alternative to chlorine and I travel alot so I was trying to pick something out that would be easy for my wife to maintain and also not eat away the liner as I was lead to believe. I have also been lead to believe that it's a much cheaper solution then using chlorine.

What would be the best way to convert over to a better solution and still be easy for my wife to maintain the pool. How does Chlorie cost compare to what I'm using now. Could I not use chlorine along with what I'm presently using?

Thanks again and I'll do the test as you recommended and see where we are at from there.

Regards
Whitney and Connie
 
Welcome to the forum. :wave:

I hope you will continue to hang around and read here. You have been given a lot of misconceptions. What they said to you will unravel very quickly if you continue to read.

I suggest you start by reading "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School. That's the very basics.

Then google "perma salt" on this forum and be ready to be very disappointed in your system.

Let us know if you want to pursue what we teach further. There is a lot of learning but the rewrds are great.
 
whitneystaley said:
Matt,
I'll give it a try and see what happens. I went with the permasalt system because they sell it as a cheap easy alternative to chlorine and I travel alot so I was trying to pick something out that would be easy for my wife to maintain and also not eat away the liner as I was lead to believe. I have also been lead to believe that it's a much cheaper solution then using chlorine.

What would be the best way to convert over to a better solution and still be easy for my wife to maintain the pool. How does Chlorie cost compare to what I'm using now. Could I not use chlorine along with what I'm presently using?

Thanks again and I'll do the test as you recommended and see where we are at from there.

Regards
Whitney and Connie
Click to expand...

Yeah, as Dave said, your pool builder did not give you accurate advice. Most likely advice that saved him lots of money and hassle. Chlorine is NOT expensive and it will NOT eat away vinyl liners. We have over 100,000 members on this forum and, if chlorine were so bad, you'd think we'd know by now. As a reference point, most TFP'ers that manually chlorinate their swimming pools (dump in their own liquid chlorine once per day or so) spend, on average, about $30/month on chemicals. I spend more than that on coffee in a week.

When people say "chlorine ate their liners" it's not about the chlorine at all, it's about people not properly managing their water balance OR listening to the pool store advice and getting into trouble. One of our esteemed Mods, kimkats, has a great story about how she first followed pool store advice on managing her pool water and was nearly washed away in a flood of water when her liner cracked and burst. The pool store had her water so messed up that it literally caused a brand new liner to disintegrate. She has been a TFP convert for many, many years and has never had a problem with her pool liner ever since.

As for ease of use, well there are many, many systems available that can automate the addition of chlorine to your pool. Salt-water chlorine generators are one and Stenner pumps (peristaltic pumps) are another. There are even systems available that will automatically add acid to your pool to control pH. I'm not going to lie to you and say that you never have to test your water and make some basic chemical additions but, and I can say this wholeheartedly, once you learn how to manage your pool water, most of us don't spend more than 5 mins per day messing with our pools and, maybe, 30mins or so on the weekend. It really can be that simple. The problem is, the industry has made it appear to be overly complicated so that the pool owner is scared to do anything on their own and rely on pool stores and service companies (most of which do a lousy job caring for pools).

If you decide that the Perma-Salt system is not going to work out for you in the long run, there are many experts on this forum that can help you convert your pool over to chlorine. It will be a bit of a chore in the beginning because there's always a learning-curve when trying something new, but it's not a very steep curve and the folks here on TFP love nothing more than to help people.

As for your immediate concern, let us know how the stain identification works out. If it turns out to be metal stains, we have some procedures to help with that and many folks here who deal with metals in their water all the time.

Good luck and please stick around and enjoy the site.

Matt
 
Hello WC! :wave: I'm one of those lazy TFP'ers. :) I still manually vacuum, and I add a little regular bleach to my pool each day. My pool is just a little bit larger than yours, but not much by volume. On average I add about 1/2 gallon of regular 8.25% bleach to my pool each day. Just like a pet, the pool needs to eat everyday. :) That's it! Once a week or so I may need to add a little acid for the pH, but that's different than what we're talking about - sanitation. For those who don't want to carry a jug of bleach to the pool each evening, there are salt water generators and liquid dispensers, but for now ... I'm just fine pouring a 1/2 gallon in each evening after work. One gallon costs me just under $3, so at $1.50 per day it costs me about $45 per month to chlorinate my pool. I hope my scenario gives you something to compare to and evaluate in the future. In the end - no pressure sales pitch or anything like that here. It's all about user-friendly, common sense pool maintenance.

Great to have you with us. Enjoy the TFP site.
 
Hi you two! It is so nice to meet you! I see you have met Matt and Dave. They are awesome!

Yeah my pool store sure did mess up my pool :( I have come to learn that my PH, TA, CYA levels were so out of whack it was not even funny. But is was always "oh lower you water about an inch or two and refill then add this and that and you will be fine". Once the liner creaked and crumbled from under me and almost took me out I just took the whole thing down and sold it.

After a while (months) hubby said he wanted to get another pool. "You find a way for me to take care of the pool that does NOT involve the pool store and we will see." Well he found TFP! I ordered a test kit from Amazon (Taylor K2006) BEFORE I ordered the pool to make sure I could do the tests. It was easy and fun! I now LOVE the pool as it is SO easy to take care of!

AND look at me now hehe a mod of a pool forum after I said I would NEVER have another pool!

Please do some reading and looking around. You will see we LOVE to help people! We can help you and your wife have a Trouble Free Pool. Our ways are science based as well as real world use tested in THOUSANDS of pool and you do not have to buy anything from us! Just share some pictures and tell us thanks! What a deal for all!

We are here when you are ready.

:hug:

Kim:cat:
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Hi Whitney (and Connie),

There are two quick ways to determine the origin of a stain (organic versus metal). The first is to take a small trichlor tablet (if you have one) and put it on the stain for about 5-10mins. If the stain lightens or disappears, then it's algae/organic. The other test involves crushing up a bunch of regular, store bought Vitamin C tabs (just vitamin C, no rose hips or extra stuff), putting the crush powder into a sock or nylon and then laying that sock or nylon on the stain. If the stain lightens or disappears, then it is a metallic stain. it is always best to perform both tests because trichlor is fairly acidic and can sometimes lighten metal stains making you think it's algae when it's not.

So now on to the other news - I'm not sure how much you have read on this site, but we are mostly dedicated to using chlorine as the only safe and effective pool sanitizer. TFP does not endorse any "alternative" sanitizing systems and we definitely do not endorse the use of any systems that put metal ions into pool water. Despite all of the pool industries wildly inaccurate and dubious claims with regard to "alternatives to chlorine" and "low chlorine" pools, the science is pretty definitive and clear - while metal ions can, in certain circumstances, act as a sanitizer, they are nowhere near as effective and broad-spectrum as chlorine. This goes for all alternative sanitation systems - metal ion, UV, ozone, etc. As you can see, you are getting staining in your pool. If it turns out to be metal stains, then the likely source is your metal ion system. For copper metal, any concentration of copper ions above 0.3ppm with the use of chlorine (the shock you are adding to your pool weekly) is a recipe for copper staining. Copper ions are not stable in solution when the pH is anywhere above 7.0. When you add an oxidizer like chlorine or non-chlorine MPS to the water, the copper ions will form copper hydroxide and copper oxide and that will stain your pool. Being a vinyl pool, the likelihood of staining is lower because metals don't really like to scale out onto polymers like vinyl, but they can if the concentrations and pH are high enough.

Anyway, we're happy to help you out where we can, but your not going to find a lot of support around this forum for metal ion system.

Good luck to you,

Matt
Click to expand...

Matt
I thought I'd have to put the trichlor tablet in a sock not the vitiam C since it's more powerful? Please confirm.

Also would a salt water system give me the sanitizer I'm looking for compared to the perma salt system I'm presently using. if so what would you recommend?

- - - Updated - - -

Matt
I thought I'd have to put the trichlor tablet in a sock not the vitiam C since it's more powerful? Please confirm.

Also would a salt water system give me the sanitizer I'm looking for compared to the perma salt system I'm presently using. if so what would you recommend?
 
Last edited:
Texas Splash said:
Tri-Chlor tabs will test for organic (algae) stains, while vitamin C will test for metal stains. :)
Click to expand...

Pat,

It is possible for trichlor to lighten metal stains since it is very acidic. It's not great at it but it can remove very light metal stains. This is why I always suggest both - trichlor to see if the stain lightens and then vitamin C to differentiate the stain ID better. If trichlor lightens the stain but vitamin C does not, then it's definitely organic. If the trichlor lightens the stain and the vitamin C does as well, then it's metal. One could start with the vitamin C test first as that would definitely determine metal versus not-metal, but it depends on what chemicals you happen to have on hand.


whitneystaley said:
I thought I'd have to put the trichlor tablet in a sock not the vitiam C since it's more powerful? Please confirm.[/COLOR]

Also would a salt water system give me the sanitizer I'm looking for compared to the perma salt system I'm presently using. if so what would you recommend?
Click to expand...

If you can reach the stain by hand then you can simply rub the trichlor tab gently on the stain to see if it lightens. A sock would be perfectly ok too but it just might take a little longer for the trichlor to saturate the local water environment around the stain. Either way would be fine. We recommend putting the vitamin C in a sock because then you can take a whole bunch of tablets and crush them up real good. Using a sock is a good way to keep all the crushed up tablets contained. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) neutralizes chlorine so you don't want to dump a whole bunch of it into your pool where you can't easily remove it.

I have a salt water chlorine generator and I think they work great, plus many people like the feel of salt water better (softer water). Which one I would recommend depends on what kind of automation system you have (if you have one). We try to say to folks to stick to one manufacturer when it comes to your equipment pad just to keep the integration easy so, since you have a Hayward pump and sand filter, a Hayward Aqua-Rite setup with a T-15 SWG cell I think is what most Hayward owners here on TFP use. The Hayward cells are top-notch and, if you're handy with DIY work, I believe you can do the install yourself. Always best to check that detail with Hayward to make sure you get the longest warranty possible (which might require a professional installation).

But before you make a switch, let's figure out what's going on with your stains. Also, before you make any decisions, the very best thing you can do for your pool is to order one of the test kits we recommend (see the article in Pool School on that) as testing your own water is a must. Once you learn to test your own water (it's not hard at all despite what all the pool "professionals" say), you'll know exactly what your water needs and there will be plenty of people here to help you out.
 

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Matt,
I just did the test maybe not exactly perfect but I think I got good results.

I put a C tab on the bottom, first in whole form and crushed in a sock. The spot appeared to turn a light purplish color??

Next I laid the trichlor tablet on the bottom for about the same amount of time and when I removed it the spot underneath looked as if there was never a brown stain there. It looked like the color the liner should be, nice and blue.

So by going what I have read it seems to me that it's a algae/organic issue? What's your thoughts and what would be the next step?

Thanks again
 
whitneystaley said:
Matt


Also would a salt water system give me the sanitizer I'm looking for compared to the perma salt system I'm presently using. if so what would you recommend?
Click to expand...

Welcome to TFP, I am very happy you both are here and figuring all this out...

salt water generator's are great, once you get one you will not know how you got by without one :)

Since you have mostly Hayward equipment you probably want a Hayward SWG but I will give you 4 that I think would work well for you..

$934 The Hayward aquarite T15 many people here have these and usually have no issues with them Hayward® Aqua Rite Chlorine Generator (with T-CELL-15 Turbo Cell) Salt Pool System

$914 The Pentair intellichlor IC40 it has 5 settings, 20%, 40, 60, 80, 100% and also many people have and like these, with automation it can have 100 settings from 0% to 100% Pentair® IntelliChlor IC40 Chlorine Generator Salt Pool System

Both of the circupool's below have a free upgrade to the 40k gallon SWG :) The links I have is the one you order and they will send the next size up to you...

$839 The RJ 45, it is almost exactly like the Hayward and Pentair just made by Circupool, it is adjustable output of 0% to 100% CircuPool® RJ-30 Salt Pool System

$699 The SJ 40 is the least expensive one and the one I have, it does not have everything the others have, it is a basic SWG, it has 25%, 50, 75, and 100% (that I love) :) CircuPool® SJ-20 Salt Pool System

I hope this helps, please ask any questions you have
 
cowboycasey said:
Welcome to TFP, I am very happy you both are here and figuring all this out...

salt water generator's are great, once you get one you will not know how you got by without one :)

Since you have mostly Hayward equipment you probably want a Hayward SWG but I will give you 4 that I think would work well for you..

$934 The Hayward aquarite T15 many people here have these and usually have no issues with them Hayward® Aqua Rite Chlorine Generator (with T-CELL-15 Turbo Cell) Salt Pool System

$914 The Pentair intellichlor IC40 it has 5 settings, 20%, 40, 60, 80, 100% and also many people have and like these, with automation it can have 100 settings from 0% to 100% Pentair® IntelliChlor IC40 Chlorine Generator Salt Pool System

Both of the curcupool's below have a free upgrade to the 40k gallon SWG :) The links I have is the one you order and they will send the next size up to you...

$839 The RJ 45, it is almost exactly like the Hayward and Pentair just made by Curcupool, it is adjustable output of 0% to 100% CircuPool® RJ-30 Salt Pool System

$699 The SJ 40 is the least expensive one and the one I have, it does not have everything the others have, it is a basic SWG, it has 25%, 50, 75, and 100% (that I love) :) CircuPool® SJ-20 Salt Pool System

I hope this helps, please ask any questions you have
Click to expand...

Cowboy,
How often do you have to replace the cells? Will I also be able to run my pump 24/7 in the winter as this is what I do now to prevent the lines from freezing.

What other chemicals are usually needed when running one of these. I know it may sound funny but we had one of these back when we had our Intex pool and I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.

Regards
Whitney and Connie
 
W&C,

OK, good job on stain determination! So there's good news and bad news.....

Good News -

Organic stains from biological critters (aka, algae) are easily cleared up with a SLAM (Shock Level and Maintain). Normally, this would be a really easy thing to fix which brings me to the.....

Bad News -

Your water likely has a high enough concentration of copper metal ions in it that if you did SLAM your pool, your water would either turn translucent green (like green tea) and/or copper metal would like stain your liner. Unfortunately, this is an object lesson in why we NEVER advise people to use metal ions in their pools - if you need to SLAM your pool, it's impossible.

So, what can we do. Well, we know nothing about your pool water chemistry. So, at this point I would advise you to get one of the recommended test kits that I alluded to earlier so we know what exactly is in your water in terms of free chlorine (FC), combined chlorine (CC), total alkalinity (TA), calcium hardness (CH), pH and cyanuric acid (CYA) levels. You'll be tempted to post up pool store test results but we do not consider them to be accurate and what we absolutely need right now is an accurate picture of what's in your water.

As far as metal testing goes, we need to know how much copper is in your water. Do you have a metal test kit to measure the metal concentrations in your pool? If not, then this is the one instance where I would say you could go to the pool store and ask them to give you a copper metal test. I wouldn't put absolute faith in their tests, but it might give us a starting point.

Here are the scenarios that are possible -

Copper Levels are below 0.2ppm - we try a SLAM and see what happen. Worst case scenario, the SLAM gets rid of the organic stains but you get some minor metal stains that we then have to deal with using an ascorbic acid treatment process. Maybe there's some magic we can play with sequestrants like Jack's Magic products but we'll have to get other metal experts in on this thread to advise there.

Copper Levels are above 0.3ppm - This would be the case where doing a SLAM would almost surely stain the heck out of your pool. At this point I would advise significantly draining the pool to remove the metals so that we can SLAM away the organic stains.

All of this is predicated on the assumption that you think TFP and chlorine is the right way to go with your pool. You could contact whoever you normally would about the Perma-Salt system and let them know you're experiencing algae/organic stains and ask what they would advise. My guess is they'll have you throw in a small amount of whatever shock product they prefer you to use and then tell you to crank up the metal ion concentration once the FC levels are low enough. It's up to you.

Wish I had a better solution for you but those are the cards we're dealt when dealing with metals. Hopefully some other mods & experts can jump in here and offer more clarity.

Matt
 
They are great :) Matt will be along in a while to help with the stains, They are not yet in my wheelhouse :)

You can run your pump 24/7 if you want (we can talk about automation and freeze protection later on, it will allow you to only run your pump below 40 degrees to protect your pipes)

If you do keep your pool up and running during the winter you would need to use liquid chlorine (very little in water below 50 degrees) because SWG's do not like working below 60 to 65 degrees.. when it gets below that you would just shut off the SWG and transfer to using liquid chlorine.

The cells last from 3 to 7 years depending on a couple different things like water quality, run time, acid wash and so on, most people just estimate replacing every 5 years, so every 5 years plan on getting a replacement cell.. An SJ40 and Hayward replacement cell are 450 dollars right now

CircuPool® SJ-40 Replacement Cell
T-Cell-15 Turbo Cell Replacement Cell for Hayward/Goldline® Aqua Rite Salt Pool Systems

The cost overall is the wonderful part, say you went with the SJ40 and had to replace the cell in 5 years, in 10 years your cost to own a SWG and chlorinate your pool would be 115 dollars a year, SWG's cost the most up front but pay for themselves in ease of use :)
 
Matt,
Funny you said that because that's exactly what they told me to do, crank up the dial and shock it?? what will happen if I take their advise? not saying I am

I will order the test kit so I can see exactly what I have now. I tested the cooper level with test strips when I wrote this a few days ago and it was at 0.4/0.5 I'll see if I can get another reading and get the test kit on order.

I don't have the money just yet for the salt water system since I have been out of work but in the next month or so I'll see if I can get it. I'll be tempted to drain the pool completely and start over from new. What's your thoughts on this.

Regards
Whitney and Connie
 
SWG's are nice to have but not a must have right now...

If it were me, I would shut off the perma-salt system forever and not look back, drain at least half of your water and refill.. That will get your copper level down and you could start a SLAM..

if water is not expensive where you are I would drain half way, fill, and drain half way again and fill.. this would get rid of almost all of the metal in your pool :)

How does that sound :)
 
W & C,

Get your test kit and let's find out where you are at. 0.4+ ppm Cu is definitely staining territory but it's hard to predict. If you CYA level is not too high and if we can get your pH low (~ 7) before you SLAM, then we might get away with not seeing green tea water. I say CYA level "low enough" because it's the CYA level that dictates how much FC we need for a SLAM. Less FC means lower likelihood of copper oxidation and staining.

As for draining, hold off. You can't fully drain a vinyl pool because it will mess up the liner. Best you can do in most circumstance is drain down to ~18" in the shallow end. But let's hold off on any draining until we get more info.

I would definitely take CowboyCasey's advice and shut off the Perma-Salt copper source. If there are copper rods or something in there, can they be removed completely?
 
JoyfulNoise said:
W & C,

Get your test kit and let's find out where you are at. 0.4+ ppm Cu is definitely staining territory but it's hard to predict. If you CYA level is not too high and if we can get your pH low (~ 7) before you SLAM, then we might get away with not seeing green tea water. I say CYA level "low enough" because it's the CYA level that dictates how much FC we need for a SLAM. Less FC means lower likelihood of copper oxidation and staining.

As for draining, hold off. You can't fully drain a vinyl pool because it will mess up the liner. Best you can do in most circumstance is drain down to ~18" in the shallow end. But let's hold off on any draining until we get more info.

I would definitely take CowboyCasey's advice and shut off the Perma-Salt copper source. If there are copper rods or something in there, can they be removed completely?
Click to expand...

[h=1]Matt
Will the TAYLOR TECHNOLOGIES INC K-2006 TEST KIT COMP CHLORINE FAS-DPD work for what I need.[/h]
Regards
 

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