Wiring Hayward Prologic PS-4 (or OmniLogic) Sub panel

[tap1936]

I am trying to decide whether the Prologic PS-4 or possibly the Omnilogic will work for me.

I have two 110v circuits coming from my main breaker panel coming to my pool area, one of the two goes to a gfci circuit (15A breaker) for some lighting. The other 110V goes to power a 110V Motor (20A breaker).

On looking at the Omnilogic or Prologic PS-4 wiring it talks about having a 240V circuit from my main breaker and connect L1 and L2 to the Omnilogic. However, since I am not using a 240V device anywhere I am thinking of only connecting one of the 110V circuit to the Hayward sub-panel. I know I will be restricted to half the breakers and max of 110V both of which are not a problem.
Would there be a problem with the above?

Alternatively, would it make sense to connect both the 110V circuits (taking the L1, L2, N and ground) to the Hayward subpanel and giving me the capability of 240V and possible enabling me to hook up a Variable speed motor (240V) in the future? I would think this would not be upto code or maybe just wrong?

I talked to Hayward tech services but their replies have only confused me further!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
TP

 

[gwegan]

You are looking at this from the wrong angle.

What are all your pool loads?

1. Pump (This word never appears in your post although it is the largest consumer of power running through the control box). That may be the 110 20 amp motor?

2. Lights

3. Margarita Machine

What does the pump require?

What do the lights require?

How long is the run from the main to the Equipment pad?

Good practice is to keep all wire for a circuit in the same conduit this is especially important in residential applications

Additionally, though not in the code all electrical service to a pool and the area around it should run through a single subpanal with less than six breakers.

to use the existing wire the wire sizes have to be appropriate and the breakers have to match and be tied together. Even then its jury rigged.

Break down and put in new 220 breakers in the main panel and a new properly sized run to your new subpanel. You need to determine the sizing.

 

[jblizzle]

Mine is supplied with a single 20 amp 230v circuit into the subpanel. I then have 230 volt breaker for the pump and 115 volt breaker for my GFCI outlet and light and a 115 volt breaker for the automation system.

I have a small pump so this works, but a larger pump or a lot of additional loads might make the 20 amp supply inadequate.

 

[tap1936]

Hi,
Thanks for your response.
1. Yes. by motor I mean the pump. It is a 1.5HP. 110V pump.
2. Led landscape lights (in the process of converting) will not exceed 500W. It was about 1000W before on the same line but am reducing it.
3. Possibly 4 Valve actuators.
So I am not going to exceed the requirements of the existing line.

It is quite a distance to run new 220V. It is about 150-175 feet and will need to be buried (NJ).

Since my wattage requirements are adequate with the existing wiring, I am thinking just attaching half the breaker with the 110V should be enough? I dont need to control anything @ 220V from the hayward electrical panel?

Thanks
TP

You are looking at this from the wrong angle.

What are all your pool loads?

1. Pump (This word never appears in your post although it is the largest consumer of power running through the control box). That may be the 110 20 amp motor?

2. Lights

3. Margarita Machine

What does the pump require?

What do the lights require?

How long is the run from the main to the Equipment pad?

Good practice is to keep all wire for a circuit in the same conduit this is especially important in residential applications

Additionally, though not in the code all electrical service to a pool and the area around it should run through a single subpanal with less than six breakers.

to use the existing wire the wire sizes have to be appropriate and the breakers have to match and be tied together. Even then its jury rigged.

Break down and put in new 220 breakers in the main panel and a new properly sized run to your new subpanel. You need to determine the sizing.

 

[gwegan]

AGGGGGH I would be more comfortable if you just ran one circuit into the Automation box. I would go read the installation manual for whatever automation you want. I suspect it can be set up on one 110 circuit.

My hesitation is while it is acceptable under some circumstances to have two circuits coming into a sub panel you want them on a single dual pole breaker at the main. And they don't make dual pole breakers with different amp limits which is what your existing wiring is.

My frustration is I don't want you to dig a big trench either been there done that got the tshirt.

 

[danpik]

What size conduit do you have running going out there now?

 

[tap1936]

@gwegan: Thanks for your suggestions. So if I just used one circuit (110V) into the hayward breaker box I should be fine? My power consumption is only going to increase by the 100-150W of the automation equipment (controller of the hayward box+SWG cell). I can live with that as my pump is 110V as well and I do not plan on running any 220V equipment. Technically I think it will work, but I want to make sure I am not doing anything against code.

So the scenario would be:
- 110V (20A) to the Hayward subpanel directly from the main house panel
- 110V from one Hayward circuit breaker to the Controller Unit (2A I believe)
- 110V (1.5HP not sure how much that translates to Amps) to the pump
- 2-4 Valve actuators (not sure of amps)
- SWG (T-15 Cell ) - I believe the 2A i mention above should include the consumption of the SWG
- Sense and Dispenser Unit

For lighting etc. I will the other 110V outside of the Hayward solution

@danpik:: No idea. I bought this with all this included and am trying to automate the pool process including adding a SWG. Where the conduit pokes out of the ground to the pump breaker it is a 3/4 inch PVC so maybe that is the size.

- I just checked and the pump consumes 16Amps, so not sure if I can run everything (Hayward Automation including SWG) on that one circuit it will be close to the 20A and I dont want to keep resetting the breaker..

I think I am inclined now to only with a SWG like a Aquarite on the other circuit and leave everything as is. When I am ready to upgrade to 220V I guess I will do everything together.

 

[danpik]

If it is 3/4 on both ends, I would consider pulling the existing wire out and pull in 4 #10 or #8 wires to power the panel with a 30 or 40 amp circuit.

 

[tap1936]

Danpik,
Thanks for your suggestion, That got me thinking and I started looking at the existing wiring to the pool.
First, it 1/2" not 3/4" as I assumed. From the main panel to the pool, half the distance is through the basement and garage (easily accessible) and then comes to the outside with a junction box. From there there is a conduit (1/2" I assume, too dark to see now) to the pool.

Question I have is from the outside to the pool would it be easy to remove existing wiring and pull in new wiring considering that this is about 12 years old. Would not the conduit be filled or something after all this time? I am not going to do it and would get a qualified electrician but am trying to estimate costs to see if I even want to attempt something like this. Any idea of what it would cost?

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

If it is 3/4 on both ends, I would consider pulling the existing wire out and pull in 4 #10 or #8 wires to power the panel with a 30 or 40 amp circuit.

 

[gwegan]

No the conduit should be high and dry.

 

[tap1936]

I have an electrician come to take a look. Would this require township inspection as well?

 

[danpik]

Not sure what the requirements are in your area...but, all electrical work should be inspected. Here in NY we have independent electrical inspectors that are certified by the insurance underwriters. A qualified electrician should be pulling a permit for this and arranging the inspection as part of his quote. Most likely the electrician may be able to pull the 4 #10 wire thru the conuit. I doubt he will be able to do the 8's. I don't have my code book here so I can not verify this.

 

[NewbieForeva]

What is the size of your 2 current breaker right now at the main breaker? Do you know what wire size are you running from your main breaker to the pool right now?

Can you change your main breaker to a 240V breaker and using your existing wire for the 2 legs to run 240V to your prologic. After that, putting two single breaker to run your two 120V. Assuming you have adequate cable size running from your main breaker to your pool

 

[tap1936]

1 breaker is 20A and other is 15A. No idea of the wire size but I would assume max would be 12.

I could change the main breaker to a 240v and use the existing wire but from what I read in earlier replies that is not safe and not upto code.

The more I look into it the more I am getting confused. I looked at the conduit coming out of the garage going to the pool I assume and it has four wires (green, white, black and purple!) I would think that would be a 240V, still trying to trace where it ends up! Is purple used for the second live wire in a 240V circuit?
Thanks

What is the size of your 2 current breaker right now at the main breaker? Do you know what wire size are you running from your main breaker to the pool right now?

Can you change your main breaker to a 240V breaker and using your existing wire for the 2 legs to run 240V to your prologic. After that, putting two single breaker to run your two 120V. Assuming you have adequate cable size running from your main breaker to your pool

 

[gwegan]

Wire size is important here.

Because its old I would prefer new wire so you know what is there.

I would go talk to an electrician and him give you some bids.

 

[danpik]

You have what is referred to as a multi-wire-branch circuit. Two hot using a common neutral. There are a few rules that need to be followed to do this. It is similar to a 240 circuit but is split into 2 120's. GFCI's usually don't do well on these circuits.

 

[tap1936]

You were right, it has been wired that way.
Since the main panel has four wires coming all the way to the pool (#12 for 20A) can I not have the panel circuit breaker replaced to a 20A 240V (L1-black, L2-Purple, N-White and Gnd=Green) and utilize a full 240V circuit without having to do the multi wire branch circuit. That eliminates having to pull new wires. My pump @ 240V is rated at 8A and the Hayward equipment shouldn't draw more than 3A.

Would this be upto code?

Thanks

You have what is referred to as a multi-wire-branch circuit. Two hot using a common neutral. There are a few rules that need to be followed to do this. It is similar to a 240 circuit but is split into 2 120's. GFCI's usually don't do well on these circuits.

 

[tstex]

First, all of the "not sures" and "I believes" need to be converted to: This is the exact amperage draw.

Next, what is the current capacity of your primary service box?

Next, you want all of your power to the pool service panel on one breaker on the main house panel; how it is configured now?

Next, do you have all the proper grounds from the pool coming to the equip-pad?

Finally, all your power needs should never exceed 80% of your breakers. Also, you need to make sure you have all of the correctly spec'ed GCFI breakers in your panel. Pool manufacturers are VERY ANAL about the breakers used for their equip and the tolerances of the breakers.

What you need to do is:
1. list each device and all of the amp draw on both start-up and operation for everything you have now, plus consider some for future [never build /size to what you only need now !!!]

2. put all pumps on each of their own separate gcfi breaker [isolate]

3. spec all proper wiring, then look at what conduit you will need, not what you have to make the wiring fit

4. make sure all grounds are run from pool to pad and properly connected to all equip grds


Get a qualified electrician that has done 50+ previous pool installations and knows all the nuances - the controller must have 3 ft or more clearance from pool equip and make sure all your wiring home-runs have plenty of length to controller. Let us know what the electrician says...

 

[danpik]

Finally, all your power needs should never exceed 80% of your breakers.

Can you provide a code citation for this please.

 

[tstex]

Clearing up Confusion over 80% vs. 100%-rated Circuit Breakers

Paul Desmond Paul Desmond | June 12, 2014 | 18,218 views

When building or upgrading a data center, at some point you need to make a decision about which circuit breakers to use. While on the face of it that may seem to be a simple decision – use the one that’s the best fit for your load – in fact it can become significantly more complicated if you don’t have a thorough understanding of breaker ratings and what they mean.

In the circuit breaker world there’s been some misunderstanding about the terms “100%-rated” and “80%-rated” circuit breakers. To dispel the confusion, Schneider Electric’s Mohamed Shishani put together a short (less than 10 minutes) podcast that does a nice job explaining the issue.

Understanding the difference between the two begins with a reading of the 2011 National Electric Code. Section 210.20(A) of the code basically says that a circuit breaker for a branch circuit must be rated such that it can handle the noncontinuous load plus 125% of the continuous load. (A continous load is one where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more.) In other words, the breaker needs an extra 25% capacity of the continuous load for headroom. That, of course, means you need a larger, more expensive breaker.

There is, however, an exception. When the circuit breaker is listed for operation at 100% of its rating, the additional 25% requirement goes away. Instead, the device simply has to be able to handle the sum of the continuous load and the noncontinuous load.

Now, in practice, you may think it will nearly always make sense to buy 100%-rated breakers and call it a day. But as the podcast points out, it’s not quite that simple.

You need to do some load calculations to determine if your loads are primarily continuous or noncontinuous. If all your loads are non-continuous, you don’t have to worry about the 125% requirement so you can just size your breakers for 100% of your load. In that case, standard, 80%-rated breakers will be more economical.

If you do have some continuous loads, Shishani says it’s best to segment your circuits so they’re all the same flavor, either continuous or noncontinuous. Then the choice of breaker will become clear.

Where you can’t do that, you need to determine the load on each branch circuit, then calculate the required ampere rating you need for each circuit breaker. The rating will be higher for the standard, 80%-rated breakers because you need to allow for an extra 25% capacity on the continuous loads. That may make the 100% breakers the more economical choice. On the other hand, if you need room for growth, that may also play into the equation.

The podcast goes through a few sample calculations to help you understand all the tradeoffs. Check it out to see if you can save some money the next time you need to buy circuit breakers.

http://www.mjobee.com/projects&news/NEC%20Art%20310.15.pdf