IG pool rebuild - Long Island

[darrylg]

So I purchased a foreclosure several years ago, and I'm finally getting around to renovating the pool.

The pool a few years ago, boarded up - I've replaced the boards since then for safety purposes:

I tentatively hired someone to renovate the pool to do the following work:

$3900 – Install 20x40 w/ 16x16 “T” 20mil Liner with new wall foam.
$1700 – Re-shape pool with up to 5 yards of sand.
$4400 – Replace steps with block and/or concrete.

Includes Liner upgrade to 27mil.
$750 – Replace light niche and light with new standard incandescent

light.**(Conduit to be done by electrician @ additional cost)**
$2500 – Install new top plate and extrusion.
$1800 – Re-plumb #4 returns.

Replace and Re-plumb #2 skimmers.
$2400 – New Filter System: DE4800 Hayward Filter.
Hayward V.S. Super Pump.
TOTAL JOB: $17,450

UPGRADES:
$1200 – Remove boards and clean debris (no dumpster).
$1400 – Hayward Goldline AquaRite Salt-Chlorine Generator.
$2800 – Hayward Gas Heater 400 BTU (gas line additional).
$3900 -- Install new Bench


This seemed fair, but there were many unknowns since the pool was still boarded up. We climbed in the pool to take a better look, but we didn't know exactly what we were dealing with until the boards were removed.


so we started to demo the cover:

finally got everything cleaned up enough to inspect the walls: it appears like the 40' wall is severely bowed and tilted.

I brought my pool guy over after I cleaned everything up. He does not do new pool builds, so he can not fix a wall with this problem. He brought in a friend of his, who is a new pool builder, and he recommended tearing down the existing cinderblock walls, and going with a new steel wall pool.

Here is the breakdown for his new pool:
Demo existing pool wo/carting - $3000
Cardinal steel pool
20x40x15 T shape pool - $26,000
20' Stadium steps - $2500
6' bench - $1500
All 2" PVC plumbing
Upgrades:
Same prices as previous
3 incandescent lights - $500
or 3 colored LED w/2 small accents on steps - $2000



I really don't want to do this whole estimation process over again, since I met with several guys regarding the renovation, but not for what's essentially a new pool.
Can you guys help make sure I'm not getting screwed anywhere? I feel like the new guy will do a good job. I saw photos of previous jobs and checked his BBB rating.
Are steel pools okay? He sounded like he was negotiable, so please let me know if anything sounds too expensive.




UPDATE 1 I got another quote from a highly regarded pool builder in the area who only does poured reinforced concrete walls, and vermiculite/portland cement floors. The numbers come out about the same, but it comes with a "free" robot, and they use all pentair equipment. All things being equal, I think the reinforced concrete is the way to go.

UPDATE 2 I received another quote from a different builder for a comparable build: 10" poured permacrete walls, sand bottom for a bit cheaper. However he "upgraded" the included equipment to Sta-rite 3HP v speed pump, auto pilot salt chlorine generator, and sta-rite mod media filter. So now I just need to do some research on that "upgraded" equipment.

 

[pooldv]

That is a nice old pool and great setting. That is a cool design, I haven't seen that before. I am not familiar with prices in your area or with vinyl pools. But, it seems like a reasonable price. And most important, you like the PB. Having a PB you like and trust is worth thousands of dollars. We only got one bid on our pool 4 years ago and we couldn't be happier with our decision.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I grew up near Stony Brook out in Suffolk County (I live in Arizona now), where are you?

Glad to see you cut down that tree near the pool wall, is someone going to remove the stump? The last thing you want that close to a pool is a tree! The roots will seek out water and destroy pool walls to get it.

If you have NG at the house, I would consider a gas heater to keep the pool warm. If you only have propane, I'd advise against as that can get pretty expensive. In that case, an electric heat pump is a decent option where you are (LIPA utility rates aside ).

Is the ground water high where you are? Since you're already digging you might consider if you need better drainage around the pool or even a dry well. Can you do vermiculite floors and slopes? If you get steel walls, insist on zinc or magnesium sacrificial anodes to avoid galvanic corrosion.

It's a nice space to have a pool in, good luck with the remodel.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

That's a monster of a pool and I sure wish it were mine! I look forward to following the rehab, please share lots of pics with us as you go?

Yippee <whose family is from Oyster Bay up your way> I love that area.

 

[kimkats]

I love, love, love that pool and area! The best of all pools! Swim area, play area, pretty setting WOW!

I have no idea about the prices.

I would ask to see some of his past pools to see his work.

Kim

 

[newpoolz]

What an awesome design! But, you definitely need to tear it out and start fresh. And I'm a firm believer in getting a couple of estimates. Ironically, they'll all be around the same price (I feel like it's collusion), but you'll pick up a thing or two with each new conversation and you'll be able to use the estimates as leverage in negotiation. The renovation prices for the equipment seem fair. The new build bench and LED sounds a little high to me. But I'm sure everything is negotiable! As far as steel walls vs concrete walls, I've researched and talked to a ton of people about it. At the end of the day, it's whatever you feel more comfortable with. I truly believe that they both will last and I can see the case for using either. So if you like the builder and you trust that he'll do a good job, then steel vs concrete shouldn't impact your decision.

 

[darrylg]

I grew up near Stony Brook out in Suffolk County (I live in Arizona now), where are you?

Glad to see you cut down that tree near the pool wall, is someone going to remove the stump? The last thing you want that close to a pool is a tree! The roots will seek out water and destroy pool walls to get it.

If you have NG at the house, I would consider a gas heater to keep the pool warm. If you only have propane, I'd advise against as that can get pretty expensive. In that case, an electric heat pump is a decent option where you are (LIPA utility rates aside ).

Is the ground water high where you are? Since you're already digging you might consider if you need better drainage around the pool or even a dry well. Can you do vermiculite floors and slopes? If you get steel walls, insist on zinc or magnesium sacrificial anodes to avoid galvanic corrosion.

It's a nice space to have a pool in, good luck with the remodel.

Thanks, ex neighbor! In case of a local inspector trolling the forum, I won't mention the town, but I will say I am in the Three village area. I am also a Stony Brook alum

I don't know who thought a tree next to a cinder block pool was a good idea, but I will be digging out all the stumps and going with a concrete patio all around.

Being on the north shore, I do not have a problem with the water table. Thanks for the tips and comments!

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the kind words, and encouragement. I have updated the first post. I was unable to help myself..I got more quotes.

I thought the main difference between steel and poured concrete was essentially the price, but the poured pool comes out the same. I think I would like the feel of poured steps, better than steel.

 

[newpoolz]

Yeah, price is very comparable between concrete and steel. Some steel builders will use concrete for the steps, so you should ask about that if it's important to you.

 

[darrylg]

Yeah, price is very comparable between concrete and steel. Some steel builders will use concrete for the steps, so you should ask about that if it's important to you.

The steel builder would be doing steel steps and bench. I feel like concrete would be a more solid build.

 

[darrylg]

Update - I received a better quote from an equally reputable builder, but he uses sta-rite equipment and autopilot salt chlorine generators. I'm leaning towards him, but I need to do research on the equipment.

 

[pooldv]

Sta-rite and Auto pilot both make good products. No worries there.

 

[darrylg]

Sta-rite and Auto pilot both make good products. No worries there.

Thanks.
I was initially going to go with a DE filter, but the salesman was being a salesman..telling me DE is old technology and it's not compatible with SWG pools. I can see his point, being the water chemistry needs to be adjusted after backwashing. But he was exaggerating at how often a backwash would be necessary. He was pushing the system3 mod media filter system.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thanks.
I was initially going to go with a DE filter, but the salesman was being a salesman..telling me DE is old technology and it's not compatible with SWG pools. I can see his point, being the water chemistry needs to be adjusted after backwashing. But he was exaggerating at how often a backwash would be necessary. He was pushing the system3 mod media filter system.

Total BS!

I have a DE filter and an SWG pool. There is absolutely no incompatibility between DE and salt. None whatsoever. You are going to get more chemical change from the rain you get on LI than from backwashing.

My DE filter is a Pentair QuadDE-100. It's the largest on the market. I tear it down and do a full clean once per year. I backwash maybe 3 times during that interval. My pool is running 365 days per year. It is absolutely the easiest filter maintenance on the planet.

Gosh, I really HATE the ignorance these sales people display. If you want a DE filter, then you should get one. It's your pool, not his.

 

[pooldv]

I call Baloney Sandwich on that too!

 

[darrylg]

Total BS!

I have a DE filter and an SWG pool. There is absolutely no incompatibility between DE and salt. None whatsoever. You are going to get more chemical change from the rain you get on LI than from backwashing.

My DE filter is a Pentair QuadDE-100. It's the largest on the market. I tear it down and do a full clean once per year. I backwash maybe 3 times during that interval. My pool is running 365 days per year. It is absolutely the easiest filter maintenance on the planet.

Gosh, I really HATE the ignorance these sales people display. If you want a DE filter, then you should get one. It's your pool, not his.

I used to maintain my parents' pool, and I would backwash the DE filter about once per season, not once a week like he said. So I knew there was some BS.

But if the mod media filter provides the same filtration level as DE without the need to backwash, it could be easier on maintenance? I can't find too much info on that system.

I told him I would do some research on the equipment before I sign any contract. He was fine with including any equipment I decided on.

There were a few things I would have to sign a liability waiver for:
a solid color liner - due to fading (may not be such an issue with SWG)
returns in steps/bench swimout - due to tearing liners at the return when the pool was drained

 

[txnole]

All filters are compatible with a SWG. Filter choice should be appropriate for the pool owner, as they have differing price points, filtration ranges and - most importantly - maintenance schedules. We went with Pentair cartridge for the filtration range. I have to say, I love not having to backwash or mess with the DE/Sand.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

But if the mod media filter provides the same filtration level as DE without the need to backwash, it could be easier on maintenance? I can't find too much info on that system.

If that is the same as the StaRite System 3 filter then I'm not sure how easy it is. First off, it's a cartridge filter and cartridge filters do not out-perform DE. DE always has the finest level of filtration. Second, the system 3 has two cartridges in it, I believe, an outer cartridge for course filtration and an inner one for fine filtration. My understanding is that they are bulky and heavy to clean and, when needing replacement are super expensive.

Perhaps some of our long-time pool service members can comment because, from my memory, I don't remember hearing folks who have to service the mod-media systems say anything good about them

 

[darrylg]

If that is the same as the StaRite System 3 filter then I'm not sure how easy it is. First off, it's a cartridge filter and cartridge filters do not out-perform DE. DE always has the finest level of filtration. Second, the system 3 has two cartridges in it, I believe, an outer cartridge for course filtration and an inner one for fine filtration. My understanding is that they are bulky and heavy to clean and, when needing replacement are super expensive.

Perhaps some of our long-time pool service members can comment because, from my memory, I don't remember hearing folks who have to service the mod-media systems say anything good about them

This guy claimed DE and the system 3 media filter provide the same filtration (4u), but I can not find any numbers on their website which validates that statement. Maybe he's trying to sell me this stuff so he can make money on the service?

I would like to hear from people who use the media filter. How often do the cartridges require cleaning and replacement?

 

[gwegan]

DE gives you the best filtration, Cartridge the next best and Sand the least best.

But, from a performance standpoint they all perform equally well at removing particulate matter from your pool. Unless you spend time staring closely in your pool at night with the lights on you will never know the difference. You just can't see it.

The downside to DE filters is that if you have serious algae problems DE filters clog faster and take more time to clean. But you are on TFP and will follow the TFP method and won't have algae problems right !!!! So it doesn't matter to you.

The secret to a trouble free filter is to grossly oversize the filter. Purchase a filter at least twice the recommended size for your pool. That way your pool operates at lower pressure, and like Matt above you only have to clean the filter once or twice a year. I clean my cartridge filter twice a year.

Just my two cents, if your existing walls are level and in good shape I would leave then and redo everything else. Concrete walls generally are better at staying in place. In other words they don't tend to move as much in the winter. The less you disturb the soil then the less you are going to worry about compaction.

 

[darrylg]

All filters are compatible with a SWG. Filter choice should be appropriate for the pool owner, as they have differing price points, filtration ranges and - most importantly - maintenance schedules. We went with Pentair cartridge for the filtration range. I have to say, I love not having to backwash or mess with the DE/Sand.

Which filter cartridge did you go with? How often do you clean/replace the filter?