New to Forum & Intro to My Build

[berndog46]

Hey All,

I'm brand new to this forum (wasn't even aware of the BBQG forum b4 it closed), and let me tell you, I'm really glad it's here! I've already gotten plenty of questions answered and great ideas for my island build, and I haven't even asked anything yet! I've been debating whether or not to post to the forum about my build, since I know once I do, I'll probably be committing plenty of time (which I don't really have much of, as it is) to trying to keep this topic updated. But what the heck...you take a little, you give a little, ya know? It's just good kharma...

Anyway, about my island: I have a bit of a unique situation, as far as what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere on the web and in books, in that I am building a "hybrid" island, part concrete block retaining wall, part 2x4 steel frame (I believe it's 25 gauge, but I have to confirm). I wonder if anyone here has any experience with a project like this (Dr. Dave??). Pictures paint a thousand words, so let me show you what I started with last summer (FYI...this project has been on hold for quite a while...I'm just now getting back to it):
[attachment=2:1uhrh3gc]CIMG2030_stitch.jpg[/attachment:1uhrh3gc]
This masonry work, plumbing, electrical conduit, etc. was all done by a contractor friend of mine. One of these days, I'll put all the pics from this construction on one of these picture sharing websites, then I'll post a link here, in case anyone is interested in seeing the details.

Here's a conceptual sketch of the layout I'm going for (scale is a bit off on some of the seating wall sections, and nevermind all the different colors and materials...just picturing different options):
[attachment=1:1uhrh3gc]Barbecue Island.jpg[/attachment:1uhrh3gc]
And here's the last picture on this post, for now. I'll keep putting up more pics showing my progress on subsequent posts here. This one shows what very little progress I made on beginning the metal framing since summer, before I had to put this all on hold for several months:
[attachment=0:1uhrh3gc]CIMG2048.jpg[/attachment:1uhrh3gc]

 

[berndog46]

So now that I've given the general project overview, here I go with my questions: I'm gonna be going with stucco on 1/4" Hardibacker for the walls, and tile countertops and backsplash. One of my big concerns at the moment (and the reason I just can't bring myself to commit to fastening some of the framing members) is in accounting for stucco thickness. I know Dr. Dave has mentioned on many occasions that with concrete adhesive, all that is needed is a 1/8" thick layer of stucco.

Dr. Dave, you are obviously a skilled craftsman in this field in which I am a complete amateur, and your experience speaks for itself, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that measurement, especially considering that the ASTM standard for stucco application calls for between 5/8" and 7/8", depending on the substrate. I know there is a considerable difference between home construction and BBQ island consruction, but the 3/4" difference between your recommendation and the standard just seems like way too much, especially if I'm looking to do a knockdown texture finish coat. Do you think a 1/2" thickness would be an excessive compromise? How about 1/4"? I'm really interested in getting your feedback on this as soon as you get a chance, since this dilemma is what's keeping me from proceeding with confidence on the rest of the framing.

Also, one other thing that I've done which I'm somewhat nervous about is opted not to go with Trex "feet" under the framing channel members, but rather, fastening them directly to the concrete slab below, mostly because of the fixed nature of the integration with the concrete wall. I hadn't even thought of this option until I read it in this forum. Please tell me if you think I'm making a huge mistake with this choice. Even so, I may not be able to change my mind anymore, since it would probably throw off some of my cutout clearance measurements for a couple of the components. I'm not too worried about this, though, since I'm in Southern California, and we don't get all that much rain down here. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated, though.

 

[257WbyMag]

Welcome to TFP!

Keep the pics coming. We all love new build pics!

 

[Bigdawg]

So now that I've given the general project overview, here I go with my questions: I'm gonna be going with stucco on 1/4" Hardibacker for the walls, and tile countertops and backsplash. One of my big concerns at the moment (and the reason I just can't bring myself to commit to fastening some of the framing members) is in accounting for stucco thickness. I know Dr. Dave has mentioned on many occasions that with concrete adhesive, all that is needed is a 1/8" thick layer of stucco.

Dr. Dave, you are obviously a skilled craftsman in this field in which I am a complete amateur, and your experience speaks for itself, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that measurement, especially considering that the ASTM standard for stucco application calls for between 5/8" and 7/8", depending on the substrate. I know there is a considerable difference between home construction and BBQ island consruction, but the 3/4" difference between your recommendation and the standard just seems like way too much, especially if I'm looking to do a knockdown texture finish coat. Do you think a 1/2" thickness would be an excessive compromise? How about 1/4"? I'm really interested in getting your feedback on this as soon as you get a chance, since this dilemma is what's keeping me from proceeding with confidence on the rest of the framing.

Also, one other thing that I've done which I'm somewhat nervous about is opted not to go with Trex "feet" under the framing channel members, but rather, fastening them directly to the concrete slab below, mostly because of the fixed nature of the integration with the concrete wall. I hadn't even thought of this option until I read it in this forum. Please tell me if you think I'm making a huge mistake with this choice. Even so, I may not be able to change my mind anymore, since it would probably throw off some of my cutout clearance measurements for a couple of the components. I'm not too worried about this, though, since I'm in Southern California, and we don't get all that much rain down here. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated, though.

Hey Berndog46,

First off welcome to the forum. Looks like you are off to a good start. Glad you have the bug again to get going again on your project. While it is a lot of work it is worth it in the end to sit back and enjoy.

I don't want to answer for Dr. Dave but I will giv eyou my thoughts on your questions. The first being the stucco thickness question. Traditional stucco is apply typically in 3 coats. A scratch coat, brown coat then a finish coat. All 3 coats together would make it about 3/4" thick. Since most people on the board here are using cement board this can function as the scratch and brown coat thus leaving only the finish coat to be applied for the island reducing the overall thickness. The finish coat would typically be about 1/8 to 3/16" thick.

As for the trex feet I would highly recommend it. Without it electrolisys will occur between the metal and concrete and cause rust. I have seen the bottom track of island rust out on concrete after 6 to 7 years. You will have to much effort and work in the island to have it last 6 to 7 years. Since from the picture posted you only have a few studs up now is not to late to drill out the rivets and cut them down to put the trex under the track and keep the same counter height to match the back wall. I suspect in 6 to 7 years you will be glad you have done it now.

Hope this helps. Keep the pictures and progress coming.

Brad

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Welcome!

The rendering is fabulous, can't wait to see the finished real deal! :-D

 

[cobra46]

I can't find it now but there are some pictures up here of a guy who had an island that sat directly on the ground. It was heavily corroded after only a few short years.

You need to have some kind of foot to elevate your island.

Thanks for posting the pics and keep them coming.

 

[berndog46]

Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement and wonderful advice.

Cobra and Brad: I figured that that was going to be the general consensus around here re: the Trex feet, and I completely agree (I saw that pic in here somewhere, too, with the rusted out framing)...I keep kicking myself for not thinking about it before the wall was built, but...too late for that...gotta work with what I've got, which is a fixed counter height, and already tight clearances on my fridge and ice-maker cutouts. Let me illustrate my troubles with a cpl pics of my most recently updated rendering:
[attachment=1:3k5c3d6r]BBQ Island Detailed Elevations_Left.jpg[/attachment:3k5c3d6r][attachment=0:3k5c3d6r]BBQ Island Detailed Elevations_Right.jpg[/attachment:3k5c3d6r]

As you can see, there are some very tight fits here, especially for the fridge (left side) and ice maker (right side). That's about 3/8" above the fridge cutout! I'm already gonna have to bring up the finished countertop a tad, just to have some room for the front edge trim tile (hopefully without having to make cuts, but I doubt it). I could also eliminate that bottom edge, but I really, really like the built in look you get with the bottom edge, and I don't think I'm willing to sacrifice that look.

One idea that came to mind as I was mulling this over was to use a longer length of a Trex stud across the bottom of the fridge cutout, in conjunction with the Trex feet along the bottom of the C channel. That way I can lift the bottom channels off the ground and still keep those cutouts at their current positions (does that make sense?). Of course, this all assumes that I can still have the stucco & hardibacker walls extend down to the floor. That should be ok, right? BTW, eventually, I'll probably be putting tile down on the concrete floor slab (oh boy), but don't worry...that was figured into the original height calculations.

At this point, any other suggestions from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Does anyone know of any other possible solutions, such as some type of thinner weather barrier that I could put between the bottom channels and the concrete slab to stop (or at least slow down) the effects of electrolysis? Thanks again...

P.S. BTW, regarding this...

now is not to late to drill out the rivets

I'm actually not using rivets, I'm using #8 pan head self-drilling screws, but from what I've read, it seems many in this forum prefer rivets. Are there any issues I should be aware of with using screws, or is this just a matter of preference? I would imagine the rivets would be somewhat stronger, but does it really make that much difference? It seems screws would be much easier for me to deal with, especially for correcting any amateur "mistakes" (yeah, let's call them "deviations" instead).

P.S.S. Geez, I talk way too much!!! Somebody shut me up already...

 

[MCR500]

I had the same concern when I was researching my build. Pro's and con's of both:

Screws:
Pros: Easy to use, no pilot hole needed, can un-fasten easier than rivets, faster assembly.
Cons: If not careful when driving, can strip out. Not as strong as a riveted joint. Heads of screws don't "flush out" as well as a rivet.

Rivets:
Pros: Stronger joint, can be had in stainless if rusting is a concern, flush out with framing very well.
Cons: Slower, pilot hole needed, rivet gun needed, must drill out if a change is to be made.

I know there are more p's and c's than that, but that is what was on my mind when I started my build. I didn't own a rivet gun, and wasn't wild about drilling a pilot hole for EVERY rivet, so I went with a #8x1/2" PH self tapping screw, zinc coated.

They worked well, and allowed me to make changes very easily(and there were a few!!). Being careful when driving them in assures a tight, strong joint. When I applied my HB to the kitchen, I didn't feel that the heads of the screws interfered at all; the HB pretty much laid flat along the framing. Considering I used about 3000!! screws in my build, that would have been a load of pilot holes!!! On the strength side, my thought was that once the HB is screwed to the framing, where is the framing going to move if a screw joint fails??

FWIW!!! Good luck on your continued progress with your build!!!

Mike

 

[Bigdawg]

Hey Berndog46,

I think Mikes post about rivets vs screws is right on. Bottom line personal preferance really. As for the foot issue and height being an issue you might look at trying to cover the bottom of the track with some kind of rubber coating. Something like they use in the bed of a truck Line X or Rhino lining. This would be thin and not effect height but still give you protection against rusting and electrolysis. Not sure if it is available for a DIY application or not but it was a thought.

Brad

 

[berndog46]

Hey moderators,

I've been wanting to post a pic of the inspiration for my island, but it's from a Lynx Grills catalog. I might be being overly cautious here, but does anyone know if there are any copyright issues with this? Wouldn't want to get myself or the forum into any possible legal tussles...LOL...Thanks!

Bernie

 

[berndog46]

Hey all,

Re: this:

Does anyone know of any other possible solutions, such as some type of thinner weather barrier that I could put between the bottom channels and the concrete slab to stop (or at least slow down) the effects of electrolysis?

I just had an idea...what about just laying down strips of 1/4" hardibacker instead of Trex between the channels and the concrete slab? I would imagine that should provide the necessary lift off the ground to prevent oxidation of the channels, but not so much that it throws off my cutout measurements too badly. Can anyone think of any drawbacks? I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't work. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Bernie

 

[SeanB]

Great thread Bernie...thanks for posting and welcome to TFP.

Do you have a pool or did you find us because of the "Grill With Skill" portion of our site? This was always one of my favorite areas of the site and (pardon the pun) I'm hoping to see it get cooking this spring!

 

[berndog46]

Do you have a pool or did you find us because of the "Grill With Skill" portion of our site?

The answer is "yes"...LOL. I do have a pool, but ironically, I found TFP not for my pool needs, but in researching for my island build. Now it's great to know that I have an "all-in-one" resource for practically all my outdoor needs, from what I've seen so far. Great site!

 

[DrDave]

Just found this post... This Forum doesn't email me like others so I don't come here as often sorry.

I speed read through a couple of your posts and first let me say this is the first Hybrid I have seen with both block and steel stud. I don't like block but what you are doing may turn out OK.

1/8" stucco is all you need. Never mind what the stucco standards are. You are not building a house that has to protect your family against all the elements and earthquakes. I did mine 10 years ago with tinted stucco and it still looks new. No scratch coat just concrete adhesive and a thin coat.

Don't go directly to the slab unless you don't care that in 5 years it will be rusted through. I have pictures to back this up.

Watching the Nascar race, will check back tomorrow.

 

[berndog46]

Continuing My San Dimas Build

Ok, so this weekend I had to make some final choices in order to move forward with this project.

First, I decided to measure out for 1/4" stucco coat rather than 1/8" as suggested, simply for 2 reasons: 1) I figure I can't really go wrong with a slightly thicker coat, and 2) I'm pretty sure it will be necessary anyway since I will be doing a knockdown type of texture, and I think if I try to do that with a 1/8" coat, the hardibacker underneath would show through in some places. So I will measure for an initial 1/8" brown coat, plus another 1/8" knockdown finish coat. I think that should cover it.

Second, although I didn't get any feedback on it yet, I decided to go ahead with my idea of using 1/4" hardibacker (HB) "feet" in place of trex, due to my countertop height restriction and tight cutout clearances. I spoke to a couple of people about it, and the general consensus seemed to be that it should work fine. So it was off to Home Depot for a sheet of HB and a few other items. Then I had to disassemble the little bit of framing that I had already fastened in place (I actually didn't mind doing this too much, since it gave me an opportunity to work out some squaring issues that I've been dealing with), and then I cut several 3 1/2" squares of HB to use as feet to slightly raise the metal framing channels and keep them from making direct contact with the concrete slab. Here's a pic showing a stack of these cut squares:
[attachment=2:1lro8qpa]IMG_0266.jpg[/attachment:1lro8qpa]
Then, after very carefully remeasuring and resquaring the floor layout, I applied a small bead of polyurethane contruction adhesive to one side of the HB squares and layed them at the screw mounting points along the steel channel path. Here are a few pics of that:
[attachment=1:1lro8qpa]IMG_0273.jpg[/attachment:1lro8qpa][attachment=0:1lro8qpa]IMG_0274.jpg[/attachment:1lro8qpa]
(Continued on next post...)

 

[berndog46]

Here's one more of the HB feet layout:[attachment=2:258dd435]IMG_0275.jpg[/attachment:258dd435]
Then I laid out the bottom framing channels, drilled holes, and screwed them in.

Here are two more pics showing the end result of lifting the channel off the ground in order to minimize corrosion:[attachment=1:258dd435]IMG_0276.jpg[/attachment:258dd435][attachment=0:258dd435]IMG_0277.jpg[/attachment:258dd435]
Overall, I think this was a good solution to the problem at hand. I was able to keep the steel framing channels from making direct contact with the concrete slab, without losing too much height for my cutouts. Now I can move full steam ahead with the rest of the framing. It's late, so I'll stop this post for now, and I'll continue whenever I make any more progress worth reporting back (hopefully next week). Feedback would be greatly appreciated. TTFN.

Bernie

 

[cobra46]

I no you have already started but I would recommend not using HB as a base. Yes it will slow down the corrosion issue but it is likely to absorb water and wick it right to your steel studs. Some type of plastic material like trex would be far better IMO.

Good Luck

 

[DrDave]

Thank you Cobra, I tried earlier.

 

[berndog46]

Thanks Cobra. I agree that this probably isn't the best solution, but again, I had already ruled out trex as an option because of my counter height restriction. There was probably a better thin, waterproof material option that I might have been able to use here instead, such as Brad's suggested rubber coating or something to that effect, but I really didn't want to lose another full weekend just trying to figure out what to do, and I just couldn't come up with any better ideas at the moment for raising the channels off of the slab. Unfortunately, I also didn't get any feedback here right away on my original "HB feet idea" post, so I figured it should be ok, especially after talking to some other ppl about it. Regardless, I'll have to live with this choice now and move forward, since I already took this apart once, and I don't think I want to go through that again, especially since I used construction adhesive under those HB feet, and I already got the channels all screwed in. Anyway, I'll be taking some additional precautions to protect those HB feet against moisture, as well.

Dr. Dave, I'm a bit confused by your comment:

Thank you Cobra, I tried earlier.

Can you please clarify what you meant by that? What did you try earlier?

 

[DrDave]

I mentioned the Trex earlier. I have posted several times in the past few week regarding the electrolysis that occurs if you don't keep the moisture away from the studs.
I apologize if that came out wrong.