Dreading Pool Light Replacement

[Jaimslaw]

Replaced gaskets on three niche pool lights (pentagram/a elite) during replaster as one was leaking. Well, that one light housing just isn't cooperating. The OEM gaskets worked for the other two, but I'm done trying to get this one to be water tight. Can't pin down where it's leaking (no bubbles), however it's got to be a gasket issue (too loose, slight irregularity on the rim it sits on...who knows). I guess I could buy another replacement gasket but trying to avoid making a career out of this fix. I'm even embarrassed to say that for my last attempt, I lathered it up with silicon. Talk about desperation (lol).

Will probably stick with same Pentair set up unless anyone has had a better experience with the Hayward light. Also, I'll be sure to lube up the line for the pull thru (pulling line into pool) and solder/shrink wrap/tape the wire at the power junction box so as not to lose the line half way thru (at which point I'll open a vein for sure).

Anyways, was wondering if anyone has had or heard of any nightmare scenarios developing out if this process, e.g., too many elbows (50' or so of line/pvc) hanging up and preventing a successful line pullout, or what other precautions I may want to take. And I assume there is no safe alternative or new method to replacing the light via a splicing the new light in the existing pwr, correct? Thx.

 

[duraleigh]

As the Master of Poor Design, My DIY pool included a light niche that was a 115' pull through five sweep 90's. With a mighty effort, I got it through.

The replacement 7 years later was a nightmare. After 2-3 failures (we even scoped the conduit to see if we could see what was hanging it up) of getting it as close as 10 feet from the end, we were defeated for the Fall and gave up. The following Spring a new effort was mounted and we got it through on the first pull. Nothing really different....it just worked this time.

Safe to do a splice?? Well, it is w-a-a-ay against code but I think I may have done it if that last attempt hadn't succeeded.

It was leakage at the lens gasket that corroded the fixture beyond repair.

 

[Jaimslaw]

Having not done a build out, I'm hoping each light's wire is a home run in its own 1/2" (?) pipe to the pwr j-box. It would seem to make for a much harder pull if SOP is to run multiple wires in one pipe. And those 90s would just add to it (hopefully they won't be in close proximity to one another - that would really hurt my chances).

If I get into a bind, I might do a splice. My waterproofing idea would be to place ths spliced wire nuts into a small cup, then fill it with resin. I would then place the solid resin block in a larger bag, into which a boatload of silicon would be pumped so as to form a solid silicon block around the solid resin block (longer curing time). I would then have the GFCI at the pool panel, plus install a GFCI breaker at the main panel that feeds the circuit to the pool panel as backup (tho two gfcis on the same circuit is not exactly kosher). My third and final step would be to call my broker to make sure my life insurance premiums are all paid up.

My assumption is that these light fixtures have a short detection switch inside that cuts power when leaking water enters the build socket..otherwise there would be no shock protection other than the GFCI when water hits a live bulb socket. If I go with the alternative splice, I'll probably call on my electrical wizard friend to wire that into the splice so it will,act in the same manner that these pool fixtures do when water enters the bulb socket (which when this happened before my fix efforts, just that leaking water filled fixture/bulb shut off...it did not trip the GFCI or shut off the other lights that are all on the same circuit.

I also read to stay away from a particular yellow pipe/wire lubricant as it negatively reacts to pvc material.

 

[Flippy]

I replaced three pool lights with no issues pulling the cable through the conduit. What I did was cut the old light cable tie the new cable together by twisting the leads together and then taping them with electrical tape. I then was in the pool pushing the old cables through while my wife pulled. The water was cold and she didnt want to get in. It was really easy. Now my nightmare comes from the fact that on one light to the automation box is only about 25 feet away however they ran the conduit a very long way around the pool. This became a nightmare because I bought a 100 foot cabled light and took 25 feet or so off before we tried to replace it. I did this to try to make it easier. When we pulled the light through I was a few feet short. Talk about being mad at myself. I ended up selling the light on ebay for 100 bucks less than what I paid. Lesson learned.

 

[Casey]

I can't assist or give advice as to what I'd do but I wish you well in replacing the light.

 

[Jaimslaw]

It's reassuring that Dave managed this with 115' feet and you with your length of cable. I'm also glad I opted for the 100' cable length even though it's only about 45' to the pwr j-box.

Curious about what is the preferred wire pull route: from pool niche or from panel j-box. I might want to pull from pool niche as it would seem to give me more pull leverage than pulling from the pipe coming up from the ground into the j-box next to my panel. Not looking forward getting into the pool at 50 temp - may wimp out, put on a wet suit and run the pool heater. The spa spill over is right over the niche so it will help raise the temp at the spot where I will be pulling from.

I wonder, is there a ground wire that also runs in the pipe along with the light cable? I guess if there was, I would see it coming out of the conduit collar in the niche and screwed/grounded into the light housing (will take a look later to see if this is the case). Thought I read somewhere about use of brass conduit to avoid having to have a separate ground wire.

Seems like having someone pushing the wire at one end makes sense in helping it get through.

One concern I have that perhaps a PB can weigh in on. Coming up out of the ground about 3 feet next to my pool panel are the three light pipes/conduits, and on top of each is the j-box. But god only knows why those three conduits that I can see are galvanized pipe, and are already showing what would be expected: pipe corrosion at the base of each pipe where it enters the ground. I will dig down and see if these pipes are fit into pvc lines or a sub-soil rated pipe material. But is this not somewhat an unusual configuration, meaning having the galvanized pipe sleeved into pvc (which I hope to be the case)? The PB of the original owner was a prominent PB in my area before going under in the R.E. crash, so I'm hoping I have underground rated conduit going to my light niches. Can't imagine the PB using galvanized pipe; and have to think it would have been caught at one of the inspections, which in my city is a fairly diligent or rigorous routine.

More to come after I get a chance to dig into the matter.

 

[gwegan]

You have to pull the cord from the niche to the j box. YOU CANNOT SPLICE THE CORD ATTACHED TO THE LIGHT FIXTURE.

Post a picture of your j boxes and we may be able to sort out what is happening.

Your building department may be requiring metal support for the jbox.

 

[Jaimslaw]

You have to pull the cord from the niche to the j box.

Should clarify that per another post, he pulled from the niche becuz the reverse method he attempted hung up - so he spliced a spare draw cord at the j-box, pulled from niche for better pull leverage, spliced in the light cord and then pulled to the j-box).

YOU CANNOT SPLICE THE CORD ATTACHED TO THE LIGHT FIXTURE.

Pretty sure you mean "shouldn't" splice in a light fixture. I would do so if I can duplicate the same water proofing configuration that exists within every pool light fixture, which has a "splice" of sorts of the hot wire to the light fixtures bulb socket (via being encapsulated in resin).

Post a picture of your j boxes and we may be able to sort out what is happening.

Went back tonight and saw that indeed, those galvanized pipes are the supports for the pvc conduits that extend up,to the lights j-boxes. So, yes, your comment below seems to explain my situation.

Your building department may be requiring metal support for the jbox.

 

[Titan7]

Wow, so sorry about your lights, I know you just did plaster! Sound like you have a good plan!!

 

[atttech-2]

I have pulled literally thousands of cables through conduit the main obstacles I have ran into to in no particular order are.
1.) Too much thickness and/or edges at the splice point from the olde wire or fish tape to the new wire. Best way to avoid this is strip the outer jacket on the old wire that you are using as a pull string. leave one conductor several inches long and cut the second one shorter do the exact same lengths with the new wire. Twist the braid together short wire of old to long of new and long to short so the splice points are staggered. Tape each individually then tape the whole thing. When you do the final taping try to keep the over all thickness to no more than 3 wraps thicker than the outer jacket. Be sure there are no edges of any kind if there is the slightest protrusion or edge it will find something to hang on (murphy's law). If you want to solder them for extra strength go for it.
2.) excessive bends in conduit not much you can do beyond good splicing and a bit of lube. I would use silicone lube either the spray the slightly thicker stuff, works in water, is non reactive, and anti microbial so you don't have to worry about it turning into something funky.
3.) Debris in the conduit. Unlikely you will run into this more of a problem with under grade vaults but if you do a good air compressor and water will usually do the trick and create a wet mess in the process.
4.) hanging on the edge at the conduit you are coming from. This is why two people is much easier than one, one pulls the other keeps the wire lined up with plenty of loose slack and pushes if need be. If the wire hangs pull back a few inches and try again, if it still does not work pull back farther and try again a bit faster. If it still will not go pull back to the splice and see if you have developed an edge (bunched up tape) retape and try again.

Worst case scenario (and this is unlikely in the extreme) you loose the pull wire unless the blockage is major a fish tape can be used or in cases of an extreme bend a string can be blown through the conduit using a grape size ball of wood and bit of PVC to create a string gun of sorts.

 

[Jaimslaw]

Really helpful info, particularly about the importance of the splice. The last thing one needs is a big splice wad or an edge from a poor wrap to catch on something.

Not too sure I fully understand the lubricant application. Where and what would be the best way to apply it so that it is most effective?

In my salad days, I did pick up work for an electrician subbing at track homes. Man, pulling miles of wires thru conduit and in general, throughout the house, was really brutal work. I only lasted about a week before my muscles and body couldn't handle it anymore.

 

[bdavis466]

The pool light cord should never be spliced. I don't care what method you are using to join the two sections and how good of a connection it will be. The whole purpose of the listed pool junction box is to safety connect the light cord to the feed line and because of that, the only way to install the new light is by feeding the cord to the junction box via the niche.

Unless your conduit from the niche to the junction box is copper or you are using a low voltage light designed for the purpose, you will also have a #8 stranded copper wire running from the niche bonding lug (sealed with an approved potting compound) and terminates in the bonding lug within the junction box.

Electricity is not something to take chances with, especially when it is submerged in a body of water, and most importantly, has your family and friends in its path.

 

[Marlahoutex]

Having a hubby who was careless and received an electrical shock strong enough to dislocate his shoulder and break his humerus, do not take electricity for granted! Your family's safety should always come first! Please take bdavis's advice and don't splice.

 

[atttech-2]

I would try without the lube first, that stuff can be a mess and you may not even need it. If you do need it a latex glove on one hand, try not to touch anything but the wire with this hand, spray the gloved hand sparingly or if using the stuff in the tube apply very small amounts and work it back and forth on a coupe foot section of the new wire as it enters the conduit. Personally I wold go with the spray little less messy and is useful for filter and pump lid gaskets as well as sliding windows and screen doors.

 

[Jaimslaw]

Unless your conduit from the niche to the junction box is copper or you are using a low voltage light designed for the purpose, you will also have a #8 stranded copper wire running from the niche bonding lug (sealed with an approved potting compound) and terminates in the bonding lug within the junction box.

When the pool was empty for my replaster, I don't recall seeing a ground lug in the niche housing, so hoping I do in fact have "red brass conduit" used by PBs opting for this material over PVC for running power to the light fixtures. I understand that the wrapped ground wire can make the pull more difficult. But I'm confident I will be able to get it out.

Hope not to have left the impression that I am a novice in electrical matters. Worked my way through college under the tutelage of a journeyman electrician - did my own service 100 to 200 amp panel upgrade, etc. And I've been bit before which long ago instilled in me great respect and deference to high voltage/amperage situations. No cowboy m.o. here (e.g. electricians who do almost all their electrical work under power - no thanks).

 

[Casey]

Just be careful!!!

 

[gwegan]

Just to clarify for those following along at home. In this thread we are discussing two different kinds of splices to the power cord for a pool light.

Pool lights have a cord attached to them that are an integral part of the light.
That cord should never be spliced to another length of cord or to regular wire to complete the connection to the junction box or subpanel. Its a listed component without the splice, with the splice it loses its UL listing. Now if one knows what one is doing the risk is less but on here we don't assume that.

When running the cord through the conduit one often splices the cord to other wire or fish tape or something else for the purpose of fishing it through the conduit. That temporary splice is necessary and perfectly ok.

Pool electrical is not normal. Even experienced troubleshooting electricians have trouble with NEC 680. It sometimes does not seem to make sense or is very specific. We assume that most folks will have electrical experience but not pool experience. You wondered about the metal conduit running into your J box. I know that NEC 680 specifies metal conduit for J box support. I suggest that you google serch Mike Holt's illustrated guide to NEC 680 pools and spas. Its fun reading (just kidding). But what is good about it is that it explains how NEC 680 works and what you have to do to comply.

 

[Jaimslaw]

I suggest that you google serch Mike Holt's illustrated guide to NEC 680 pools and spas. Its fun reading (just kidding). But what is good about it is that it explains how NEC 680 works and what you have to do to comply.

Am familiar with Mike Holt's publications - the nature of my business is such that I am bombarded with the marketing of his NEC guides.

He did set new standards with his illustrated guide to the NEC: so much so that other publishers of code guides and outlines often use the phrase "the Mike Holt of plumbing (or whatever trade being covered by the guide) in their marketing of the author of the code book. His comments to the code are exceptionally helpful in that he gives you the rationale behind many of the code sections - something missing in most code guides.

His bio is pretty interesting too (bare foot water skiing champion, among other accomplishments besides his mastery of what arguably is the most difficult of the construction trades).

So, yes, good recommendation.

 

[atttech-2]

When you do the swap let us know how it goes.

Is the light you are swapping an LED if not have you thought about an upgrade? Beyond the energy saving (which was most important to me at the time) I did not realize how much I would enjoy being able to change the color each one makes it look like a whole new pool. Funny part is I absolutely hate the white light setting which is of course all I would have got if I had not gone LED.

 

[Jaimslaw]

I have the BulbWizard LEDs, which have so far been a good choice. Very competitively priced too.