New Pool - SE Pennsylvania
- Thread starter rccarps2
- Start date
Those look like magazine pictures! SO pretty! You did a GREAT job! WOWER!
I know he is taking care of it right now BUT do you have YOUR test kit for when you take over? Ask him which one he is giving you and we will help you fill in the any missing tests if needed.
Kim:cat:
I know he is taking care of it right now BUT do you have YOUR test kit for when you take over? Ask him which one he is giving you and we will help you fill in the any missing tests if needed.
Kim:cat:
Thanks everyone for the comments!!
We went with Volt landscape lights. http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/
The specific lights we went with are these. http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/landscape-path-lights-p/330.htm Not sure what wattage or color LED bulb the landscaper ordered. The lights seem very high quality. The only suggestion I would make is to upgrade the ground stake. The standard plastic ones break easily. Landscaper broke one and I snapped another while trying to adjust the angle the light was leaning.
I plan on ordering 4 of these to install myself on the posts of my deck stairway, and hook them into the existing lights. I can't order them until the landscaper gets back to me on which wattage and color led bulbs he put in the other lights (or tonight i could just take one apart and check myself). http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/deck-light-low-voltage-deck-lights-p/600-br.htm
Kim, once the first shovel hit the ground a few months ago I ordered a TF-100 kit at the recommendation of you and tons of others on this site.
Ryan
We went with Volt landscape lights. http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/
The specific lights we went with are these. http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/landscape-path-lights-p/330.htm Not sure what wattage or color LED bulb the landscaper ordered. The lights seem very high quality. The only suggestion I would make is to upgrade the ground stake. The standard plastic ones break easily. Landscaper broke one and I snapped another while trying to adjust the angle the light was leaning.
I plan on ordering 4 of these to install myself on the posts of my deck stairway, and hook them into the existing lights. I can't order them until the landscaper gets back to me on which wattage and color led bulbs he put in the other lights (or tonight i could just take one apart and check myself). http://www.landscapelightingworld.com/deck-light-low-voltage-deck-lights-p/600-br.htm
Kim, once the first shovel hit the ground a few months ago I ordered a TF-100 kit at the recommendation of you and tons of others on this site.
Ryan
Anyone have some input on my plaster? Since construction has finished, marks have started to appear in the plaster. The PB originally told us about mottling in the grey color we chose, and we understood the "marble" look would be present. However, as you can see in the pics there are tons of issues past what I would consider normal mottling. I started bringing this up to the PB shortly after construction was completed and was told that it would even out over time. The first year the PB came out and used a pvc pipe and acid to etch off a footprint using a brush that was present on the steps. I voiced my concerns multiple times since the pool was constructed. Now I am just getting tired/frustrated/disappointing and even embarrassed (guests often comment on it).
This past fall the plaster guy came out only to go right into the water chemistry was probably the issue. I showed him some of my historic tests and the TFP levels I maintain and he backed off that as an issue. Then he progressed into "Do you have a softener?" and wanted to blame it on my soft well water (even though the pool was filled via tanker provided by PB). Since the pool was about to be closed, he asked me to drive the PH down into the high 6's before closing and that when I open this spring he expects to see it even out. Well here we are mid-summer with nothing getting better.
To the PB's credit he has gotten a lot more involved with the plaster guy in trying to get this resolved. He says the PB lost a few crews and has been very slow in responding to new pools, let alone repair/warranty concerns. I think the PB realizes that this plaster may be difficult if not impossible to fix, as he is talking about a getting "special" price from the plaster guy for a pebbletec re-plaster. We originally wanted to do a pebbletec, but it wasn't in the budget during the original build. Here we are into the third season and I would rather not look at doing a treatment to the plaster that would potentially shorten its lifespan.
I have adhered to the TFP chemistry since the pool was handed over to me and been testing using the TF-100 kit.
I shoot to maintain my chems in the following ranges.
FC 5-7
PH 7.4-7.8
TA 80
CH 375-400
CYA 70-80
Test results from yesterday
FC - 8
PH 7.8 (added half gallon acid)
TA 80
CH 375
CYA around 75
These pictures are from 2016/17/18.
2016 Original footprint on step that was removed via spot acid wash. Step is noticeably rougher to the touch now.
2016
2017
2017
2017
2017
2018
2018
2018 (that white blob was the plaster guy trying to spot treat a footprint with a pvc pipe and acid. You can see how my robot left lines in it later that day. He didn'e even bother to tell me not to run it or touch it after he treated it)
2018 (you can see the whole deep end is a lighter white color (left side of photo). Like the whole bottom section in a nearly perfect circle was bleached white)
Am I crazy to think this is a pretty bad cosmetic defect and am I right to push hard for a resolution?
Thanks,
RC
This past fall the plaster guy came out only to go right into the water chemistry was probably the issue. I showed him some of my historic tests and the TFP levels I maintain and he backed off that as an issue. Then he progressed into "Do you have a softener?" and wanted to blame it on my soft well water (even though the pool was filled via tanker provided by PB). Since the pool was about to be closed, he asked me to drive the PH down into the high 6's before closing and that when I open this spring he expects to see it even out. Well here we are mid-summer with nothing getting better.
To the PB's credit he has gotten a lot more involved with the plaster guy in trying to get this resolved. He says the PB lost a few crews and has been very slow in responding to new pools, let alone repair/warranty concerns. I think the PB realizes that this plaster may be difficult if not impossible to fix, as he is talking about a getting "special" price from the plaster guy for a pebbletec re-plaster. We originally wanted to do a pebbletec, but it wasn't in the budget during the original build. Here we are into the third season and I would rather not look at doing a treatment to the plaster that would potentially shorten its lifespan.
I have adhered to the TFP chemistry since the pool was handed over to me and been testing using the TF-100 kit.
I shoot to maintain my chems in the following ranges.
FC 5-7
PH 7.4-7.8
TA 80
CH 375-400
CYA 70-80
Test results from yesterday
FC - 8
PH 7.8 (added half gallon acid)
TA 80
CH 375
CYA around 75
These pictures are from 2016/17/18.
2016 Original footprint on step that was removed via spot acid wash. Step is noticeably rougher to the touch now.
2016
2017
2017
2017
2017
2018
2018
2018 (that white blob was the plaster guy trying to spot treat a footprint with a pvc pipe and acid. You can see how my robot left lines in it later that day. He didn'e even bother to tell me not to run it or touch it after he treated it)
2018 (you can see the whole deep end is a lighter white color (left side of photo). Like the whole bottom section in a nearly perfect circle was bleached white)
Am I crazy to think this is a pretty bad cosmetic defect and am I right to push hard for a resolution?
Thanks,
RC
blakeusa
In The Industry
I don't think you are being crazy or unreasonable. Its a new pool and its the footprints not the mot
I might suggest that you work with your builder to see if he will pay for a professional acid wash.. meaning drain the pool, acid wash and scrub with stainless brushes and refill.
This would be like a 2k remedy and should remove the footprints. You will still have motting and it will change after acid wash.
If that does not work or another option would be to have the surface lightly buffed with a diamond polisher that is driven by a power washer. This will remove very thin layer of surface
and should resolve the foot problem.
Would rather see if you can resolve your existing surface with a couple possible techniques.. and swim and use the pool. THEN see if your PB will offer you a big discount or Pebble at his cost
in the future if you can resolve it with acid wash or buffing.
Just a note to resurfacing makes a big mess.
Blake
I might suggest that you work with your builder to see if he will pay for a professional acid wash.. meaning drain the pool, acid wash and scrub with stainless brushes and refill.
This would be like a 2k remedy and should remove the footprints. You will still have motting and it will change after acid wash.
If that does not work or another option would be to have the surface lightly buffed with a diamond polisher that is driven by a power washer. This will remove very thin layer of surface
and should resolve the foot problem.
Would rather see if you can resolve your existing surface with a couple possible techniques.. and swim and use the pool. THEN see if your PB will offer you a big discount or Pebble at his cost
in the future if you can resolve it with acid wash or buffing.
Just a note to resurfacing makes a big mess.
Blake
- Apr 10, 2018
- 5,156
- Pool Size
- 18375
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45
If it were me, I would push it to the point of a legal resolution through the civil court process. There is not a court in the U.S. that would believe footprints in plaster are acceptable.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,475
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Yes, you should push for a resolution. What you have is unacceptable. I had similar problems and not as bad as you. My story is here --> Replastering a Pool - A 1 Year Saga - Problems Lessons Learned
It took an acid wash, drain pool, sand down all surfaces with a diamond sander, and refill. Pool looks okay unless you look critically at the surface. I probably could have pushed the pool company to redo the plaster job. But I decided a new job had no more guarantee of being better, I did not want to go through all the time and expense and loss of use of the pool, and I will see how this finish lasts. I have been using this pool company for almost 20 years and they built the pool so I have a decent customer relationship with them. If the plaster needs to be redone prematurely I will negotiate some discounts with them at that time.
It took an acid wash, drain pool, sand down all surfaces with a diamond sander, and refill. Pool looks okay unless you look critically at the surface. I probably could have pushed the pool company to redo the plaster job. But I decided a new job had no more guarantee of being better, I did not want to go through all the time and expense and loss of use of the pool, and I will see how this finish lasts. I have been using this pool company for almost 20 years and they built the pool so I have a decent customer relationship with them. If the plaster needs to be redone prematurely I will negotiate some discounts with them at that time.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
The good news is... your pool is so bad there will be no debating what has happened, whose fault it is, and what needs to be done. That is a defect in material or workmanship. Foot prints? Really? Blamed on pool chemistry? Yah, right. It needs to be replaced. Not fixed.
NOT acid washed. That is a typical "pool pro" remedy used to mask defects at the expense of the pool owner! Absolutely unacceptable. Acid removes plaster. Period. If "fixes" problems by physically removing them along with a layer of plaster that they're attached to or part of. That's why that one spot he "fixed" now feels rough. Yah, he removed the foot print, along with the plaster you paid for. That bill will become due, long after the warranty has expired, when the plaster fails prematurely. Plaster has a life span. In no small part determined by how much plaster there is. If you allow a PB to acid wash your pool, he's removing some amount of the plaster. Which means it will fail sooner, plain and simple.
Your position should be that the plaster needs to be replaced. Chipped out down to the gunite, and replaced. No spot repairs, no acid fixes. Replaced. IMO...
- - - Updated - - -
Well, unless those are your footprints, because you got in the pool before you were supposed to...
NOT acid washed. That is a typical "pool pro" remedy used to mask defects at the expense of the pool owner! Absolutely unacceptable. Acid removes plaster. Period. If "fixes" problems by physically removing them along with a layer of plaster that they're attached to or part of. That's why that one spot he "fixed" now feels rough. Yah, he removed the foot print, along with the plaster you paid for. That bill will become due, long after the warranty has expired, when the plaster fails prematurely. Plaster has a life span. In no small part determined by how much plaster there is. If you allow a PB to acid wash your pool, he's removing some amount of the plaster. Which means it will fail sooner, plain and simple.
Your position should be that the plaster needs to be replaced. Chipped out down to the gunite, and replaced. No spot repairs, no acid fixes. Replaced. IMO...
- - - Updated - - -
Well, unless those are your footprints, because you got in the pool before you were supposed to...
- Apr 10, 2018
- 5,156
- Pool Size
- 18375
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45
Totally agree. The ball is in your court. Accept nothing short of your complete satisfaction.
Those marks are all visibly there after the plaster but before the fill. Does that interior require acid washing like pebble interiors? I don’t see any mention of them acid washing when you describe plaster and fill day.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
A new plaster surface would not get acid washed as part of its normal installation. Even a well performed acid wash etches plaster, and it wouldn't feel as nice to the touch. You don't notice that in a pebble pool, because the pebbles are above the surface of the plaster. Acid washing is used in a pebble pool to burn off just the right amount of plaster to expose just the right amount of pebble, otherwise the pebbles would be mostly hidden in the plaster. The side benefit of acid washing a new pebble surface is that it greatly reduces plaster dust, in some cases. That's why brushing a new plaster surface is more work than brushing a new pebble surface. I never saw any dust while brushing my new pebble...
Definitely not my footprints. As my wife can vouch, I have flat feet. No one was in the pool before the PB gave the go ahead.
Agree 100%. Acid washing is not an acceptable solution. As you and others mentioned, it will only shorten the lifespan.
In a conversation with the PB a week or two ago, he said the best time to re-do an interior is the spring since the pool water can be dumped to the ground without the environmental ramifications that would happen if it was dumped when perfectly balanced. The winter rain and time "closed" would dilute down everything.
- - - Updated - - -
Haven't gotten to that point yet and hope that I don't.
PB has gotten a lot more involved since I started to voice my displeasure more often. What is frustrating is how slow making any progress or getting any information is. Shouldn't take weeks to get a some kind of planned resolution on this, let alone the years I have been complaining.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Absolutely no expert here on the subject, but that sounds a bit like PB-speak, to me. My gut about it:
The sooner this gets resolved the better. He could go bankrupt, or otherwise go out of business, change his mind, recant, die, whatever. No time like the present! He's busy now, that's why this is dragging on, and why he wants to push it out. That's his problem, not yours.
I had my pool fixed in October. I figured the ground would be driest at the end of the summer, just before the rainy season. Do you have any ground water issues in your area? You don't want to empty a pool if there's any ground water about. I also figured October would be relatively cool, air temperature-wise. Less stress on curing plaster.
And I pushed it to October, contrary to my own "get it done sooner than later" advice, because I didn't want to lose any more swim season than I already had.
It also gave the pool all winter to cure, without people, organics or salt in it. With minimum vacuuming (cleaner wheels running around).
I was also juggling the cost of the fill. My city bases my annual sewer charges on water use during winter months. I didn't want to fill my pool during those months and drive my sewer rates up for the entire year.
I'm not sure what levels will be so different come spring. I would expect no environmentally significant differences in salt, CH, TA or CYA. Maybe a little, but not significant. Are there any local ordinances driving this notion? pH can be adjusted within minutes before you dump water (though can't imagine why you'd need to), and chlorine can be neutralized in minutes as well, chemically. PB-speak...
I agree the sooner the better. I have sat back too long on this "assuming" the PB and plaster company would resolve it. Turns out, unless I inquire on basically a daily basis nothing would get done.
I would rather wait until the fall or spring to do any work on it, as to minimize the pool downtime. Our swim season isn't long to begin with, as I normally open in April and close sometime in September.
We are on a well, so any new fill would require tankers coming in (as was done on the initial fill by the PB). My pool is a good distance from the street and the yard sloped down considerably from it, so any large amount of water being pumped out of the pool would run toward the back of the property and into a very small creek. The PB was concerned about dumping a large amount of water into such a small stream and causing environmental issues downstream. I am no chemist or pool water expert, so I can only go on what he said. When I pump to waster or backwash I do it out into my yard where it gets absorbed into the grass and not running off toward the creek.
Groundwater can be an issue, as we are so close to a creek. During construction a pump was placed in the deep end which cycled on and off continuously to keep the water down. The pump was actually dug down below the rebar and left there when shot with gunite. The wires and hose actually were cut off at the exit next to the shell and then covered by my paver patio. I probably could fidn the ends of them by pulling out a few pavers, but don't know if the pump would still work.
PB just emailed me back after I asked another status update from the Plaster Co. Says he hasn't heard anything since middle/end of last week. He will follow back up with them on Wednesday.
I understand in our area this is the time PB's and related contractors make there money for the year. My situation is obviously going to cost them money, not make it. But it has been a long time since I have dealt with a situation with the lack of acting and response as this one. There is no need for me to be asking for resolution to this for years. If only I still had some money held back, I bet there would be some action.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,475
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Plasters are slammed this time of year. Chances are you will not get their attention until late September when the work slows for them.
You don't want them palstering if the temp gets below 40F. So your window to replaster in the fall can be small.
Here is an interesting old thread - Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster
Good link. Bookmarked that one to help when talking to the PB and Plaster Co. This site has already been ultra helpful with giving me information to sound educated and not let them try and pull some smoke and mirrors.
I would imagine whatever the resolution is, that it would occur early next spring, which is fine by us as we don't want to eat into the swimming season.
I will tell you a comment by the PB that didn't sit well with me when he made it. "You know, it's only cosmetic. The function of the pool is still fine." Not really what I want to hear.
RC
WHAT??? Did he really say that????????? Oh adult word NO!!!! gurrrrrrrrr
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
OK, if there is a creek involved, and your pool water would not absorb into the ground, that is another matter. Though I still contend waiting until spring will not make a significant difference to the environment. As I said, chlorine and pH are a non-issue. But the salt would be the problem. Local or state authorities might have something to say about dumping a saltwater pool into a creek, which means some lake downstream. Do some research, for sure. Fines could fall into your lap, ultimately.
Yah, if they were pumping ground water during construction, that's a biggie. Is the creek dry right now? That'd be an indicator, I would think. Again, no expert on the subject here. Not, that is, beyond looking at internet photos of pools that floated out of the ground when emptied. Freaked me out when they were emptying my pool!! This issue could completely destroy your pool, so ya gotta be careful. Common sense would point to just about any season except spring though, right? Would ground water peak in late-winter/spring?
Regarding PB responsiveness... it seems I write about that a lot here at TFP, but just based on my own experiences, here in CA. YMMV. Short version: time to ramp this up. He'll push you around as long as you let him (pardon the tough love). When you're ready, you start with a written demand letter. Stating the facts, stating the resolution you require. State a reasonable deadline. And in CA, I had to include wording to the affect that my recourse for his failure to comply to the demand would result in litigation. Send it certified mail. That could solve it. Or it could also destroy your working relationship. So it's a calculated risk. But it's the next step if he's gone beyond what you're willing to put up with. Talk is cheap (on both sides). A certified letter can have a profound affect. Then, depending on how he responds, you get the authorities involved. It seems Pennsylvania doesn't nave a contractors state licensing board. Which is a bummer if true, because that's what solved my uncooperative contractor problem. At quick glance, it seems your state's Attorney General might have a hand in complaints against contractors. That is something to study, and perhaps pursue. I saw the PA AG complaint form online just now. Then on to small claims court if you have one, or superior court if the small claims court doesn't exist or doesn't cover the cost of the fix. As stated here in your thread I think, attorneys are the absolute last resort. Nobody wants that.
I wrote the letter, my contractor ignored the deadline, I fixed the pool on my dime, then filed the complaint with the Contractors Board, and started preparing my case for small claims court. The CA Board's case worker assigned to my complaint negotiated the settlement, and I got 100% out of the contractor, before I had to take him to court.
Oh, almost neglected to mention: my next step, before court, would have been to go after his bond, which is required in CA of every licensed contractor. That might have gotten me some cash, not sure, I didn't get that far. But it is something for you to look into. Is your contractor bonded? Get the name of the company that issued the bond and call them to see what they might be able to do on your behalf.
Speaking of 100%: I got not only the new finish out of him, but the water, the salt, some money for startup and even for some startup chemicals. As should you, even if that includes pumping that water out and hauling it off for proper "environmental disposal." I even upgraded my finish from plaster to pebble. I didn't seek, or receive, the difference in cost between the two, just saying I used my unfortunate circumstance for a little perk. No one was the wiser, and now I have a beautiful, brand new pebble pool!
I didn't read your entire thread, but I glanced and it seems you've been tortured quite a bit over this pool, by this PB. Continue your course of action as long as it's working for you, but at some point you might have to step it up. Good luck!
Yah, if they were pumping ground water during construction, that's a biggie. Is the creek dry right now? That'd be an indicator, I would think. Again, no expert on the subject here. Not, that is, beyond looking at internet photos of pools that floated out of the ground when emptied. Freaked me out when they were emptying my pool!! This issue could completely destroy your pool, so ya gotta be careful. Common sense would point to just about any season except spring though, right? Would ground water peak in late-winter/spring?
Regarding PB responsiveness... it seems I write about that a lot here at TFP, but just based on my own experiences, here in CA. YMMV. Short version: time to ramp this up. He'll push you around as long as you let him (pardon the tough love). When you're ready, you start with a written demand letter. Stating the facts, stating the resolution you require. State a reasonable deadline. And in CA, I had to include wording to the affect that my recourse for his failure to comply to the demand would result in litigation. Send it certified mail. That could solve it. Or it could also destroy your working relationship. So it's a calculated risk. But it's the next step if he's gone beyond what you're willing to put up with. Talk is cheap (on both sides). A certified letter can have a profound affect. Then, depending on how he responds, you get the authorities involved. It seems Pennsylvania doesn't nave a contractors state licensing board. Which is a bummer if true, because that's what solved my uncooperative contractor problem. At quick glance, it seems your state's Attorney General might have a hand in complaints against contractors. That is something to study, and perhaps pursue. I saw the PA AG complaint form online just now. Then on to small claims court if you have one, or superior court if the small claims court doesn't exist or doesn't cover the cost of the fix. As stated here in your thread I think, attorneys are the absolute last resort. Nobody wants that.
I wrote the letter, my contractor ignored the deadline, I fixed the pool on my dime, then filed the complaint with the Contractors Board, and started preparing my case for small claims court. The CA Board's case worker assigned to my complaint negotiated the settlement, and I got 100% out of the contractor, before I had to take him to court.
Oh, almost neglected to mention: my next step, before court, would have been to go after his bond, which is required in CA of every licensed contractor. That might have gotten me some cash, not sure, I didn't get that far. But it is something for you to look into. Is your contractor bonded? Get the name of the company that issued the bond and call them to see what they might be able to do on your behalf.
Speaking of 100%: I got not only the new finish out of him, but the water, the salt, some money for startup and even for some startup chemicals. As should you, even if that includes pumping that water out and hauling it off for proper "environmental disposal." I even upgraded my finish from plaster to pebble. I didn't seek, or receive, the difference in cost between the two, just saying I used my unfortunate circumstance for a little perk. No one was the wiser, and now I have a beautiful, brand new pebble pool!
I didn't read your entire thread, but I glanced and it seems you've been tortured quite a bit over this pool, by this PB. Continue your course of action as long as it's working for you, but at some point you might have to step it up. Good luck!
Obviously, this is a result of improper and poor workmanship and carelessness, and not by improper water balancing.
The white footprints cannot be caused by getting into the pool after the pool has been filled with water. The damage was done prior to the pool being filled.
An acid wash will not fixed the problem, and as has been mentioned, it makes things worse in the long run.
Polishing and sanding may work, but will be very difficult and time consuming because at least an eighth inch layer of plaster will have to be removed in order to remove the white discoloration and restore the original color. The thickness of typical plaster is about a half inch.
As has been mentioned, there are various ways to pressure the PB into making good on your pool. Push for it. And re-plastering may be the only appropriate remedy.
Here is a link to an article if your pool is re-plastered. A Plastering 'Watch List' | Professional Watershaping | Watershapes
The white footprints cannot be caused by getting into the pool after the pool has been filled with water. The damage was done prior to the pool being filled.
An acid wash will not fixed the problem, and as has been mentioned, it makes things worse in the long run.
Polishing and sanding may work, but will be very difficult and time consuming because at least an eighth inch layer of plaster will have to be removed in order to remove the white discoloration and restore the original color. The thickness of typical plaster is about a half inch.
As has been mentioned, there are various ways to pressure the PB into making good on your pool. Push for it. And re-plastering may be the only appropriate remedy.
Here is a link to an article if your pool is re-plastered. A Plastering 'Watch List' | Professional Watershaping | Watershapes