Borates

[rick458]

I will be switching to BBB method

Have not used any Borax yet how critical is the Borate
test and what does that influence beyond increasing the Total
Alkilinity?

 

[ewkearns]

The Borate test is a color match and isn't all that critical. Don't worry about TA, but have enough MA on hand to balance the pH....

 

[Divin Dave]

You might not even need Borates. Although the acronym of BBB is still fairly popular, TFPC would prefer the acronym we use be TFPC (TroubleFree Pool Care).
This because 2 of the B's may not even be needed and BBB seems to suggest that they are.

TFP official recommendation, is not to borate the pool until you have a decent grasp on the chemistry, and have successfully kept your pool balanced and self maintained for about 3 months.

Borates can be an optional enhancement, but by no means is it required to balance the pool water.

I will be switching to BBB method

Have not used any Borax yet how critical is the Borate
test and what does that influence beyond increasing the Total
Alkilinity?

 

[chiefwej]

Borax is frequently used by many pool owners to raise pH. When it is used in this manner no borate testing is ever needed.

A much less common situation is the use of borates added (in much larger quantities) to help buffer rapid pH changes. This is where borate tests come into play.

 

[rick458]

In TFP management the Baking Soda / Total Alkalinity controls the PH swing am I right?

 

[duraleigh]

Baking Soda / Total Alkalinity controls the PH swing am I right?

Not quite. I always think of it like this..

pH up - 20 mule team borax

pH down - Muriatic acid

TA up - Baking soda

TA down - aeration and acid...it's process found in Pool School that you must read to make TA change quickly and permanently

 

[robdac]

Have not used any Borax yet how critical is the Borate
test and what does that influence beyond increasing the Total
Alkilinity?

I have never used borax beyond adding borates to my pool. The only difference I can tell with borates is the water is subjectively shines more. It's not usually part of TPFC. My pH usually rises so all I need in muratic acid.

 

[chiefwej]

Most pool owners will find that their pH has a natural tendency to keep moving in one direction. So you will need to add either acid to lower it, or borax to raise it, but not both. Most will find they use acid, few ever need borax to raise pH.

 

[zacc44]

i added the borax to my pool and the ph stayed stable for longer, but its again drifted upwards ... and now i have to add a whole bunch MuriaticAcid at a time to fix it ... so i dont know what it saved me ... it supposedly might serve as a secondary pool sanitizer along the chlorine

 

[chiefwej]

Using 50 ppm borates to help stabilize pH won't reduce the amount of acid you need to use, it just delays it. Additions of acid are needed less frequent, but more is needed each time. Borates make the pH harder to move, in both directions, so it takes it longer to rise, and requires more acid to lower.

 

[ewkearns]

Using 50 ppm borates to help stabilize pH won't reduce the amount of acid you need to use, it just delays it. Additions of acid are needed less frequent, but more is needed each time. Borates make the pH harder to move, in both directions, so it takes it longer to rise, and requires more acid to lower.

This has not been my experience...... with 50 PPM Borates and a TA of 50-60 PPM, my pH has been rock solid at 7.6 and I haven't added a drop of MA in 6 months.

 

[chem geek]

In theory, the borates should just delay the rise in pH but not change the total amount of acid that needs to be added. For some people they find that the borates indeed lessened the amount of acid needed but we don't know why for sure. It could be that without the borates people swung the pH down further since it would tend to rise faster and when the pH is lower there's more carbon dioxide outgassing so more acid would be needed. Or there might be some other effect of borates on the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing relating to surface tension or some other effect, but it doesn't seem to be consistent.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Perhaps the secondary effects are playing a bigger role - borates do cut down the pH rise inside an SWG cell (reducing scaling) and they do act as a mild algaecide. Perhaps both of those effects together contribute to reduced usage of the cell and a reduction in pH rise? In the case of pools using dosed liquid chlorine sources (manual or automated dosing), I'm not sure one would see enough of a drop in chlorine demand (via-a-vis reduced LC additions) to have a similar effect on pH. The number of factors involved would require a good set of statistics to do a multi-factor analysis to see which ones are significant.

In my experience with borates, they did lower the frequency of MA additions substantially and reduced the amount needed by a small amount. I also keep my TA at the lower end of the range and target my acid additions so that my pH never really goes below 7.5, so that also helps greatly.


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[zacc44]

so when my ph goes up it doesnt seem to go higher than 8.2 (electronic ph meter) even if i leave it like that for a month without MA (maybe it follows some kind of logarithmic curve ?)

 

[chem geek]

This is consistent with carbon dioxide outgassing slowing down at higher pH as shown in this chart where you can see that lower TA and higher pH is less over-carbonated. It actually should stop outgassing somewhat below 8.2, but the borates become stronger pH buffers at higher pH (see pH Buffer Capacity) so that may also be part of what you are seeing. That is, a combination of slower carbon dioxide outgassing at higher pH and stronger pH buffering from the borates at higher pH. With your SWG you may have some undissolved chlorine gas outgassing and that won't slow down at higher pH but the borates will buffer the pH more strongly at higher pH.

 

[Marcion333]

do borates really decrease the overall amount of chlorine consumption in the pool???

 

[JoyfulNoise]

do borates really decrease the overall amount of chlorine consumption in the pool???

This claim is probably the hardest one to nail down. There is no direct chemical interaction between chlorine and borates. But borates at 50ppm do act as a mild algaecide similar to what one might experience by using Polyquat-60. So, if the borates help to keep the algae levels down, then you indirectly affect the FC demand.

In my own pool, this is my experience - when my borates fall below 30ppm, I notice my SWG needs to be run at a higher % output to maintain constant FC. When I first borated my water, I did not adjust my SWG at all and I measured an immediate 2ppm increase in FC and it stayed that way so I had to turn down my SWG output.

That being said, other users do not report consistent enough results in this area to make the broad claim that borates will reduce chlorine consumption.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006