Too "homemade"?

[Philo]

I take frequent vacations up to a month at a time.
I "made" a Liquid Chlorine dispenser while I'm gone.

20 gal Rubbermaid Trash Can.
Bulkhead to attach 10' of 1/4" sprinkler tubing to the bottom of the trash can.
1 micro flow valve.
Very simple.......

I fill it with 9 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine and 9 gallons of water mixed up and replace the cover.
It dispenses 30 drops per minute or 3 oz. per hour.
That puts in the 18 total gallons (9 gallons of the liquid chlorine) per month.

CYA=45
FC=6
ph=7.5

Is this too "homemade" to work?

 

[pabeader]

My concerns are, where is the chlorine going? Directly into the water or into the piping somewhere? If the drip is continuous, you might be getting a little too much concentration in one place on the your pool or piping. Usually automatic feeders only feed when the pump is running so the chemical gets well mixed into the water.

And, over time, the chlorine will degrade and by the end of the month will not be as strong as expected. Especially if it gets real hot.

 

[dmorriso]

Do you have a link or part number for the "micro flow valve"? That sounds like a poor man's Stenner.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

 

[Cinic]

Does it just use gravity to provide the 'pressure'?

 

[Crackerjack4u]

Nothing is ever too homemade IF it works correctly. We are all big DIYers here at TFP.

But here are my concerns. By my calculations using PoolMath 9 gallons of 10% bleach=1152oz which per PoolMath would raise your FC by a total of 49ppm. Assuming the water and bleach are going in in the exact 50/50 ratio, which is highly unlikely because the bleach is heavier and will probably settle to the bottom of the can, so I suspect you'll probably end up getting mostly water for 15 days, and then mostly bleach for 15 days or vice versa.

But let's pretend for a second that all is going as planned, and you are getting 3 oz per hour=72 oz per a 24 hour period (again, only 1/2 of that being chlorine and the other half being water).
If you divide the total that those 9 gallons can provide weather mixed or not which=(49ppm), by the 30 days you are gone, it equals out to an approx. 1.63 daily FC level Only, which isn't enough to maintain your pool at the recommend 3-5ppm level for your 40ppm CYA.

Now if everything went as planned and you had 18 gallons (2304 total oz) of chlorine, instead of just 9 gallons in there running at the same rate then it could provide a total of 97ppm of chlorine. If you divide that by 30 days, and that would put you right at the minimum FC range of 3.2PPM daily for your current CYA level that Might be being added to your pool correctly. If something doesn't flow exactly right, or the concentration depletes, or it rains while you are away raising your chlorine demand that isn't in there then I suspect you will most likely come home to a nice green pool.

I think your initial idea isn't supplying near enough daily chlorine, and even doubling the amount, as in my example, is still cutting it way too close for comfort. I hope this helps, and have a wonderful day.

 

[Cinic]

Nothing is ever too homemade IF it works correctly. We are all big DIYers here at TFP.

But here are my concerns. By my calculations using PoolMath 9 gallons of 10% bleach=1152oz which per PoolMath would raise your FC by a total of 49ppm. Assuming the water and bleach are going in in the exact 50/50 ratio, which is highly unlikely because the bleach is heavier and will probably settle to the bottom of the can, so I suspect you'll probably end up getting mostly water for 15 days, and then mostly bleach for 15 days or vice versa.

You sure about that? Seems like (since bleach is mostly water) if you stirred up the solution once you added both the water and bleach, you would end up with a solution of 5%. Would it really separate back into two layers? If so, why doesn't that happen in our pools?

 

[Philo]

Re: Too "homemade"?

Do you have a link or part number for the "micro flow valve"? That sounds like a poor man's Stenner.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

The valve is DIG 1/4" In Line Shut Off Valve (no electricity needed).
I just open it up a fraction from the closed position and drip...drip... drip......

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing is ever too homemade IF it works correctly. We are all big DIYers here at TFP.

But here are my concerns. By my calculations using PoolMath 9 gallons of 10% bleach=1152oz which per PoolMath would raise your FC by a total of 49ppm. Assuming the water and bleach are going in in the exact 50/50 ratio, which is highly unlikely because the bleach is heavier and will probably settle to the bottom of the can, so I suspect you'll probably end up getting mostly water for 15 days, and then mostly bleach for 15 days or vice versa.

But let's pretend for a second that all is going as planned, and you are getting 3 oz per hour=72 oz per a 24 hour period (again, only 1/2 of that being chlorine and the other half being water).
If you divide the total that those 9 gallons can provide weather mixed or not which=(49ppm), by the 30 days you are gone, it equals out to an approx. 1.63 daily FC level Only, which isn't enough to maintain your pool at the recommend 3-5ppm level for your 40ppm CYA.

Now if everything went as planned and you had 18 gallons (2304 total oz) of chlorine, instead of just 9 gallons in there running at the same rate then it could provide a total of 97ppm of chlorine. If you divide that by 30 days, and that would put you right at the minimum FC range of 3.2PPM daily for your current CYA level that Might be being added to your pool correctly. If something doesn't flow exactly right, or the concentration depletes, or it rains while you are away raising your chlorine demand that isn't in there then I suspect you will most likely come home to a nice green pool.

I think your initial idea isn't supplying near enough daily chlorine, and even doubling the amount, as in my example, is still cutting it way too close for comfort. I hope this helps, and have a wonderful day.

Thanks
I am going to measure daily to see how I'm doing. I can increase/decrease the drops (if I increase drops I'd need a larger trash can) as well as increase/decrease the 50/50 solution.

 

[Crackerjack4u]

Hi Cinic,

No I'm not sure that is what would happen, I was just stating what I thought perhaps could happen. LOL I didn't mean for it to sound like it would split down the middle kind of like oil and water. After I re-read it, I realized that the example I used made it sound like it would do this big split down the middle thing, and the 2 would completely separate etc. but that's not what I meant. All I meant was that I suspect the distribution may not be as equal on a daily basis as one would hope. You may see days with more chlorine, and then days with less, and even though we'd hope to see the exact same amount each day, I suspect we probably wouldn't.

In the pool when we pour the chlorine in front of the jet we do that to disperse the bleach out into the larger volume of water, then we brush the bottom of the pool where we poured it to get the bleach that didn't disperse because it is now sitting on the bottom of the pool, we allow it to circulate, so it mixes well, etc. But even if we allow it to circulate all day we can still show varying levels testing in different areas of the pool, but, of course we are referring to a lot more water, and a lot less bleach in the pool too.

So I'm not exactly sure how equal amounts of bleach, and water in a smaller container would do over a 30 day period. I know I have bleach tabs here that I mix up in a gallon of water, and I have to shake the jug each time before I use it because the chemicals tends to separate some when they've been sitting, but it is not sodium hypochlorite, so ? We're in the mist of a huge thunderstorm right at the moment, but as soon as I can, I think I'm going to do a half and half experiment with equal parts of 10% bleach, and water, and let it sit to see how much, if any, appears to separate after it's mixed. I'll let you know the results Have a wonderful night.


Philo, I think it is an awesome invention, and I hope you can tweak it to maintain the levels for a full month. How cool would that be. . I just don't want you to come home after a relaxing, 30 day trip, to a green pool. Keep us posted on where you're at on your levels, and how it's doing. Have a wonderful day. Way to keep thinking outside the box. .

 

[Texaspops]

Hi Cinic,

No I'm not sure that is what would happen, I was just stating what I thought perhaps could happen. LOL I didn't mean for it to sound like it would split down the middle kind of like oil and water. After I re-read it, I realized that the example I used made it sound like it would do this big split down the middle thing, and the 2 would completely separate etc. but that's not what I meant. All I meant was that I suspect the distribution may not be as equal on a daily basis as one would hope. You may see days with more chlorine, and then days with less, and even though we'd hope to see the exact same amount each day, I suspect we probably wouldn't.



So I'm not exactly sure how equal amounts of bleach, and water in a smaller container would do over a 30 day period. I know I have bleach tabs here that I mix up in a gallon of water, and I have to shake the jug each time before I use it because the chemicals tends to separate some when they've been sitting but it is not sodium hypochlorite, so ? We're in the mist of a huge thunderstorm right at the moment but as soon as I can I think I'm going to do a half and half experiment with equal parts of 10% bleach, and water, and let it sit to see how much if any appears to separate after it's mixed. I'll let you know the results Have a wonderful night.

There should (will) be no separation. This would be just like having a 5% bleach solution with 95% water. It will stay homogeneous.
The higher percentages don't separate out (10%, 12%) on standing for several days or even much longer, so why would 5%.

 

[PAGirl]

It is always recommended to run the pump for 30 minutes when measuring your FC on this site. I would surmise that is because there is some sort of settling or rising of the chlorine. Even after it had mixed for hours with the pump running. I would think this would differ from a gallon of bleach.

 

[gtemkin]

Be aware that a full can will "push" out more drops per minute than an almost empty can for the same valve setting, so it's better to get a short large diameter can than a tall small diameter can to get consistent drop delivery over time.

 

[duraleigh]

There should (will) be no separation. This would be just like having a 5% bleach solution with 95% water. It will stay homogeneous.
The higher percentages don't separate out (10%, 12%) on standing for several days or even much longer, so why would 5%.

If I am not mistaken, the liquidator operates on the idea that the bleach will stay submerged from the pool water and while there is some co-mingling, it is how the liquidator works.....by maintaining separation from the chlorine and pool water.

 

[mas985]

If mixed, the chlorine should stay mixed with the water, if separated, it will tend to stay separated. The Liquidator has a special funnel that allows you to add chlorine to the water without too much mixing with the water so they stay separated.

 

[Texaspops]

If I am not mistaken, the liquidator operates on the idea that the bleach will stay submerged from the pool water and while there is some co-mingling, it is how the liquidator works.....by maintaining separation from the chlorine and pool water.

The original post stated "I fill it with 9 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine and 9 gallons of water mixed up" so he has mixed the two liquids.
This will produce a homogeneous solution, not a suspension or dispersion that will stay mixed, just like other bleach-in-water products.
I responded to Crackerjack who was concerned that the two liquids might separate out again, and therefore sometimes put just water into the pool.
I was trying to explain that his worries were unjustified.
This is before the new now 5% mixture drops into the pool. What happens to it after that is presumably dependent
on the extent of circulation and mixing going on in his pool.

 

[chem geek]

Of course, both statements are true -- Mark (mas985) summarized it well. Chemicals that dissolve in water and are mixed with water will stay mixed in the water and not separate (with some unusual exceptions I describe later). The only reason The Liquidator works with the chlorine on the bottom and the water on top is that the two are NOT physically mixed/stirred. So the chlorine DOES enter into the water, but via diffusion which is very slow (it takes 18 hours for a concentration gradient to get to 50% at a distance of 1 centimeter from the initial boundary and that's at hot spa temperatures).

See this post regarding the question of whether CYA settles to the bottom of a pool. The bottom line is that such separations due to gravity overcoming diffusion are only measurably seen in very great depths such as salt in the ocean or for molecules that are of high molecular weight with significant density differences as a function of concentration (e.g. maltose) though as I demonstrated even those molecules in a pool (with it's very shallow depth compared to the ocean) would effectively stay mixed.

 

[Texaspops]

Thanks once again! But I am a little confused here.
Has the original poster, Philo, invented the Liquidator, or is that a totally different
piece of equipment?
I am under the impression that is a totally different item that operates differently from the
simple drip-flow apparatus described in the initial post, but as a newcomer to this forum there
are clearly some things I am not familiar with, so please correct me if I am incorrect here.

 

[Crackerjack4u]

Thank you all for the info.

 

[chem geek]

The Liquidator is different since it relies on keeping the chlorine and water mostly separate. The chlorine is added from the bottom and sits on the bottom while water flows over it above it. Diffusion and some mild water flow mixes some chlorine in to the water above and that gets pumped into the pool. The level of chlorine gets lower so the boundary between chlorine and water gets lower, though one can refill with more chlorine which as was shown above is done by adding chlorine from the bottom via a tube along the side of the container. The Liquidator gets water from a tube connected to a T connected to a drilled hole in the pipe after the pump and it puts out water through a tube connected to a drain plug at the bottom of the pump basket so on the suction side of the pump. So The Liquidator has more flow since the chlorine dosing is limited in part by the rate of chlorine diffusing/mixing into the water flow above it.

The unit being described in this thread is just a tank of chlorine that has been diluted. It is dosed using gravity through a constrained outlet/tube. It's more like dosing using a peristaltic pump except no pump is used.

 

[Texaspops]

Thanks chem geek! That is what I was thinking. Totally different system, with different principles of operation.
The fact that the chlorine and water do not mix thoroughly in the Liquidator is not related to feeding a completely mixed
bleach solution by gravity directly into the pool water.

 

[Philo]

Be aware that a full can will "push" out more drops per minute than an almost empty can for the same valve setting, so it's better to get a short large diameter can than a tall small diameter can to get consistent drop delivery over time.

Good point. I hope that is only hypothetical in this case as I like my container.... (I have the trash can on a stand up off the ground, hopefully that will minimize the effect).