High CYA did a water dump next steps to keep it down?

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M

miwitte

0
Sep 4, 2015
110
Charlotte,NC
so first time poster never really ran into this have had the pool 12 seasons and never had any issues. I test water with strips every few days, test kit weekly and took to pool store a few times a season just for a full test always ok. I have bought my 3" tabs from Lowes or Walmart put them in clorinator and no issues. I always had the setting on clorinator on 2 and tabs would last about a week and chlorine was always good. So both walmart and Lowes changed the brand to Clorox and I noticed two things. First my chlorine was extremely high, and second the tabs were gone much quicker so apparently they dissolve quicker. It was so high the strips indicate at least 10, and the test kits was a funky color for chlorine as well as PH and Alky. I went to pool store(leslies) and they tested said chlorine was over 20 and I shouldn't go in it. They had chlorine reducer which I used to get it back to below 5 as we were having a big party that weekend. rebalanced pool and took it back to Leslies and all in range.

SO been using the newer tabs with a much lower setting to keep chlorine in check no issues. So went to get a water check at pool store as my chlorine and balance looked good, but I was getting a little green algae on walls. They came back and said CYA was 120 which is too high as it reduces efficiency of FC. My thought is this new tabs from Clorox have a ton of CYA in it. That's what's brought me here I had no idea about CYA and learned a lot looking here.

So with high CYA I need more FC which is why I was getting algae. My kit only goes to 5 and in dumping 1/3 of my water and replacing got it to 80 which means I still need 5-9 PPM of FC. In doing research it appears that's safe if the CYA is that high. I would like to get the CYA down so I can run lower levels of chlorine so looks like I need to stay away from Tr-clor tabs.

here is where the pools at, the pool is clear and looks sparkling.
FC-5
TC-5
Hardness-120
CYA-80
TA-120
PH-7.4
TDS-1100
Phosphates-100

Moving forward what to do? I want CYA to reduce so I can run a lower FC level. Will CYA reduce over time with evap and rain if I use just bleach or Cal-Hypo?
Benefits, drawback of Liquid bleach?
Benefits, drawback of Cal-Hypo?
Which is better for pool and cheaper bleach or Cal-hypo?
Does having a high FC affect PH and TA tests?
Does a high FC with a high CYA affect liner or bleach clothes, or hurt hair/skin?
If liquid bleach what brand where to obtain walmart?
Same with borax and baking soda what brands don't want perfumes or any other stuff in there.

Of course pool guy said not to use liquid bleach....
 
Moving forward what to do? I want CYA to reduce so I can run a lower FC level. Will CYA reduce over time with evap and rain if I use just bleach or Cal-Hypo?
Benefits, drawback of Liquid bleach?
Benefits, drawback of Cal-Hypo?
Which is better for pool and cheaper bleach or Cal-hypo?
Does having a high FC affect PH and TA tests?
Does a high FC with a high CYA affect liner or bleach clothes, or hurt hair/skin?
If liquid bleach what brand where to obtain walmart?
Same with borax and baking soda what brands don't want perfumes or any other stuff in there.

Of course pool guy said not to use liquid bleach....
Click to expand...
Wow! that's' a lot of ground to cover. Usually better off to take one or two issues at a time

1. CYA will reduce VERY slowly from rainfall and splashout,,,,,not from evaporation. You're better of to do a 50% drain.

2. Bleach is the most close to perfect to put chlorine in your pool.
Cal Hypo has calcium and is susceptible to giving you c;loudy water, even scale.

3. Bleach is better. Cost about the same

4. Bleach will have no effect on clothes and liner ASSUMING you stay within the guidelines in Pool School.

5. Brands don't matter. Check the percentage chlorine available

6. Pool Guy is not knowledgeable.
 
Welcome to TFP!

CYA does not reduce due to evaporation and the only practical way to reduce it is by water replacement by draining. CYA is slowly degraded by chlorine and if new sources of CYA are not added then you will have to add some back into the pool.

Bleach only adds a tiny bit of salt to the water which is not harmful until it gets extremely high. Being in NC, it should never come close to raising so high that you would ever see any problem caused by high salt.

Cal-Hypo adds calcium which could lead to problems with the pool and equipment if it is too high. Vinyl pools are fine with no to low CH values.

Bleach is the best option for chlorine or installing a SWG.

FC above 10 ppm will cause the pH to read falsely high with Taylor reagents. Other brands will not be as good as Taylor. The TA test is fine with high FC.

As you noted the pool developed algae when the CYA hit 120 so that means you did not have high enough FC in the pool for that level of CYA. You can have a very high CYA level and still maintain your pool algae free if the FC level is high enough to kill off the algae before it can grow. The higher the CYA the more FC it takes to be of equal strength. FC is not how strong the chlorine is as it is bound by the CYA and held in reserve until it is needed. There are many articles that you can read here at TFP to learn about this relationship.

You will have to shop around for the best price on bleach. I usually get the best deal from the independent pool shop that sells 12.5% in carboys.

You may or may not have to use borax or baking soda. If needed, those can be found at the grocery store or Walmart.

You will either have to stick with our method or the pool guys method as they are not compatible with each other. Our method relies on accurate testing and you only add the chemicals the pool needs. Having one of the recommended test kits is a must if you want to use the TFPC method, see my signature for a link to the test kits. I prefer the TF-100 as it has the test reagents in the sizes that will not run out too fast.
 
Hey thanks for the quick response! So know that I actually understand the relationship between CYA and FC it all makes sense. Pool supply places recommend FC below 4, which if your CYA is very high will cause issues. So they sell you shock and algaecide its a vicious cycle. So I purchased their rebranded taylor kit that has CYA check, however it appear to be missing the CYA testing tube with black dot. Also it only goes up to 5PPM which given my CYA level of 80 is the minimum. I guess I will return that so I can get a test kit that measure higher FC amounts as I am blind over FC of 5 with that kit.

From a testing standpoint does everyone test every day and then calculate needed bleach? My problem is I travel a lot and not sure wife can handle or remember to do that. Is there a liquid chlorine feeder like the puck type? I think after a while you can see how fast the chlorine burns off but that's dependent on pool temp, how much sun that day CYA levels etc. Lots of variables. The seasons almost over so just want to figure out where to go. I know for now I need to keep my FC high because my CYA is high.

I think my problems started after changing to the Clorox brand of pucks they dissolved super quick and over chlorinated the pool on same settings of feeder. Now all of a sudden my CYA levels were too high so I suspect they had more CYA than the previous brand and now I am too high.

I need to get a kit that can measure FC of 10ppm and Im game to try this out since we probably only have a month left.
 
Also, just to point out something that you mentioned earlier. When you think of FC level you always need to keep in mind the CYA. There is no issue with a daily FC of 10 or 20ppm, if you have the proper CYA level to buffer it. That's the part that most folks don't know before they learn about the FC/CYA relationship. I see by your post #4 that YOU get it. That's great. You are well on your way to taking control of your pool and never being at the mercy of the pool $tore again.
 
miwitte said:
.........Is there a liquid chlorine feeder like the puck type? I think after a while you can see how fast the chlorine burns off but that's dependent on pool temp, how much sun that day CYA levels etc. Lots of variables. The seasons almost over so just want to figure out where to go. I know for ......
Click to expand...

I have a feeder for muriatic acid - instead of a liquid chlorine feeder (SWG for Cl)... you could get a Stenner pump for Chlorine and 'tweak' it so that it feeds enough Cl to keep values at 3 or 4..
Maybe even pair it with something like Howard's Sense & Dispense system... That way, you will always be assured of optimum levels of Cl.

I am not sure if adding liquid Cl to a Stenner pump tank that is outside in the sun/heat will cause the Cl to lose potency... I am guessing it will.
 
so what I don't get is why the pool companies don't recommend if my CYA is 80 that the FC needs to be 5-9? If I keep the FC at their recommended levels of 2 Ill get algae. Or do they know this and its just to get you back and buy expensive chemicals to "fix" the algae issue.

So everyone here checks and adds daily? I think if CYA 80, FC is 8 or 9 you could go a couple days without the FC dropping too much. I don't know I don't have experience here. Just don't want to come home after a 3 day trip or a week at the beach to a green pool. Not sure if wife is comfortable adding gallons of bleach every day.

Does anyone use a combo of pucks when not around on vacation for a week and bleach when you can check daily?
 
Many people on the fourm have a Stenner pump or the Liquidator to automate the liquid chlorine additions to the pool. Use the search function to find many setups that the members have posted.

The Clorox pucks do not add more CYA per puck, as all trichlor pucks add 6 ppm of CYA for each 10 ppm of chlorine added. What they are doing is dissolving at a faster rate than the other pucks which is adding FC and CYA at a faster rate than before.
 
There really is no magic potion or spell that will let you have a sparkling clean pool with little effort. Yes there are steps you can take that will automate some of the tasks, but it really just depends on what effort and $$ you put into it.

You are where I was a couple of years ago, same size\type pool, using pucks and shock for about 10 years with little or no problems, not realizing or even knowing what CYA was while it was slowly building up in the water. Then some event happens and you discover you can't keep things clean even with large amounts of chlorine. Read through enough threads and you will hear the same story over and over and over......

Relax, you are in the right place. Read Pool School. Throw the Leslies kit in the trash, well maybe keep the TA reagents. Get the TFT kit. Search threads about the Liquidator or Stenner mentioned above and try to decide which one might work best for you. You might even consider a SWG for your situation. Until then, you will have to manually dose CL, probably every day, and that requires daily testing to stay on top of it until you get CYA into a reasonable range and get the pool on a balanced schedule.

Ask questions, lots of good people are here to help.
 

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miwitte said:
so what I don't get is why the pool companies don't recommend if my CYA is 80 that the FC needs to be 5-9? If I keep the FC at their recommended levels of 2 Ill get algae. Or do they know this and its just to get you back and buy expensive chemicals to "fix" the algae issue.

So everyone here checks and adds daily? I think if CYA 80, FC is 8 or 9 you could go a couple days without the FC dropping too much. I don't know I don't have experience here. Just don't want to come home after a 3 day trip or a week at the beach to a green pool. Not sure if wife is comfortable adding gallons of bleach every day.

Does anyone use a combo of pucks when not around on vacation for a week and bleach when you can check daily?
Click to expand...

Hello, and Welcome to TFP Miwitte :wave:,

Here is a link for the Chlorine/CYA chart that we use here to figure out where our chlorine levels need to remain in relation to our current CYA level to prevent algae growth. http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock

If your current CYA is 120ppm, and you are not wanting to drain/refill since the season is almost over anyway then you'll need to maintain your chlorine levels at the 9-14ppm range, never allowing your chlorine to drop below the 9ppm range, or else you are at risk for algae to grow.

As far as the pool company question they don't understand the relationship between the CYA and Chlorine that's why so many people get into algae trouble using their methods.

Once you have an algae issue, they keep selling you chemical after chemical that does NOT Fix the problem, it only masks the problem, making you think it's fixed, only to have it return again in the near future. Some of the chemicals also cause you to have even more problems which is what your are seeing now with the CYA of 120ppm.

The only sure way to Fix/resolve an algae problem is to do a SLAM-Shock Level And Maintain. Which raises your chlorine levels higher than the algae can grow in, and you maintain those levels there until the algae you do have is completely killed out. Then you maintain a lower chlorine level that is appropriate for your current CYA level to prevent the algae from returning again. Here is a link for the SLAM and what it entails. http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/125-slam-shock-level-and-maintain-shockingl

As far as the pucks, they are what have raised your CYA to 120. Pucks, and powder shock will cause this issue with long term use.

But to answer your question, we don't as a rule use pucks routinely along with our liquid bleach. (Vacation time is FINE, but otherwise they cause a lot more problems then they are worth because they add too much unnecessary things to your pool water that will almost always end up causing issues that can be avoided by just not using them).

If when you go out of town if you use pucks they will increase your CYA level even more (probably not a lot more in 3 days), but if it does raise it to a higher level, then you'll have too adjust your chlorine higher to compensate for the increase to prevent getting algae. (Definitely a vicious cycle that we around here at TFP chose not to endure).

I hope this helps explain it a little more. Have a nice day. :)
 
miwitte said:
so what I don't get is why the pool companies don't recommend if my CYA is 80 that the FC needs to be 5-9? If I keep the FC at their recommended levels of 2 Ill get algae. Or do they know this and its just to get you back and buy expensive chemicals to "fix" the algae issue...
Click to expand...

They know it, but if you keep the levels in check, what reason would you have for going back to the pool store? Its simply a financial decision on their part, and I am convinced it borders on illegal business practices. Just imagine that an industry developed a product that you didn't really find all that important, but soon discovered that you couldn't live without it...and then they started charging a lot of money to keep that product working. You would feel that they are acting like drug dealers, hooking you and then raising their prices. Wait, am I talking about pool stores or cell phone companies????

Sorry... kinda drifted there.

Anyhow, any business that screws over its customer base like pool stores deserves everything they get.
 
hey guys so I am starting on the BBB method. I bought chlorine from Walmart for 2.94 for 121 OZ of 8.5% and added to bring my FC up to 6 as per the calculator. Same thing with Borax, my PH was a little low between 7-7.2. I have the re-branded Taylor K-2005 kit as my chlorine need to be high(7-10) with such as high CYA. I tried testing CYA with the kit myself it uses a lot of reagents. Is there any dilution method to test for CYA over 150 or maybe more not 100% sure where I am? Strips show super high, I used the Taylor kit and I didn't get very far before the black dot disappeared so it is way over 100.

I already dumped about 9k gallons of water out of 20K however doing 6-8 inches at a time you are really not removing that all at once so its a slow CYA removal and potentially expensive I cant wait to see my water bill!. I am probably going to look at the Biogen stuff over the winter to see if that can get my CYA down I've seen some good results if you are diligent with how you do it and don't add other chemicals. Thanks for this great site I never knew about CYA. with a very high CYA and what test strips, testing kits and pool stores recommend for FC(2-4) that will cause algae issues with CYA of 150. SO then its buying shock, algaecide, FLOC and all kinds of stuff to get rid of algae when all they had to do was run it at the FC recommended dose for the CYA. When I finally confronted the guy there with the chart I downloaded about CYA and FC he did finally say "yeah you need to run FC a lot higher if your CYA is that high". To them anything under 100 is ok, but with that OK of 100 CYA they are recommending FC of 2-4 which causes algae issues. Crazy recommendation if you read this site but that sells more chemicals.

Is there a dilution method for CYA I already figured out how to test very high(10+) FC but that may be a good sticky.
 
yep that how I did it to test for FC over 10. Cool thanks. BTW the FC and PH came up just as the calculator predicted using 8.5% Wal-Mart chlorine and Borax. SO 6 bucks would have been double that in pucks and PH up. Pretty sweet. Now just have to figure out my routine based on using these instead of Tri-clor pucks. Thanks again everyone! Pool party at mikes today! water is perfect I put the heater on last night for my girls 16th and its really nice going to have some brews and float around.
 
Whoo hoo!! I love pool parties :). It sounds like you are doing great with your calculations, and adds. Good job. You will figure out a routine that works well for you.
Have a fun, and safe time at the party, and Tell your daughter Happy Birthday from TFP :)
 
LOL I'm soooooo jealous. Wish I had kabobs, a pool heater, and an outdoor theater too. :(. Oh well, poo, I guess I'll just have to live vicariously through the crumbs you decide to toss my way lol.

Absolutely, on the bleach thought. We swam, and had in pool squirt gun fights all last week with our 6yr old, and 1 yr old grandsons using the exact same method that you're using now, and not one tear, complaint, smell, taste, etc. As pabeader explained above, as long as your FC is in line with your CYA, you'll have no problems, plus you'll know your pool is adequately sanitized like it should be.

The TFP method is awesome, I am so glad that I switched to it, and I'm so glad that you did too. I promise you won't be sorry. Have a wonderful Night. :)
 
So retested CYA using the dilution method. I used 1 part pool water to 2 parts distilled or a 3:1 ratio. I used this solution to measure CYA(got 50) and so with 3X multiplier CYA of 150! This is after doing a dump! So looks like I need to up my chlorine big time. Right now CYA is 150, FC is 5, PH 7.5, Alky is 100 and Calcium 140. Everything looks in line just need to add another jug or so of bleach to get it to 11. With CYA levels this high no wonder I had algae at FC of 3-4.
 

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