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Thread: ZeoSand

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    ZeoSand

    I have an Autopilot Total Control system. Salt is at 3200. ZeoSand (or similar-sounding products) sounds like a good substitute for sand in my Hayward S310T, but ZeoSand requires a salt-water backwash from time to time to cleanse it of ammonia among other things. Since my water is already salty, I'm concerned about whether the salt in my pool water would constantly free up the ammonia and send it back into my pool. I would also like to use ZeoSand for its ability to take calcium out of the water (my pool is filled by water with a CH of 500). I would not want the salt in my poolwater to constantly wash the ZeoSand of calcium straight back into my pool, either.

    Since a salt-water pool is not all that salty, though, maybe it would still work. Can you tell me if ZeoSand or a similar product is compatible with and remains effective in a SWG pool?

    Thanks.
    17,000 gallon in-ground Marsite pool
    Hayward S310T sand filter
    Autopilot Total Control SWG system
    Pentair Whisperflow WFE-24, 1 HP pump
    AquaCal Heatwave Model 120 heat pump
    Jandy Pool Digital Assistant for remote programmed
    control of pool pump, heat pump, light, waterfall

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    spishex's Avatar
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    Re: ZeoSand

    Take a look at this post by Richard regarding Zeolite and ammonia.

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    Re: ZeoSand

    Welcome to the forum!

    I would also like to use ZeoSand for its ability to take calcium out of the water
    That would be a very useful characteristic bit I don't think zeosand will do that for you. In fact, about the only practical way to get calcium out of your pool water is to drain and refill a portion of it.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: ZeoSand

    Read my post in this thread for my opinion on using zeolite for pool filtration and then save yourself a lot of money and stick to sand!
    post3257.html#p3257
    if you want to improve the filtration of the filter you can add a bit of DE to it after every backwash! If you don't know how just ask.

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    H2O_Keeper's Avatar
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    Re: ZeoSand

    Hate to Hijaak the thread but its a fit...

    I have seen all the controversary one way or the other about zeosand benefits. Was wondering if anyone in the forum or independent studies have been done to validate their data of claims of a smaller micron level of filtration?
    21K Gal, IG, Vinyl, Bleach-Borax-Baking Soda, 3/4HP Hayward pump, Hayward sand filter, 200,000BTU Heater, TF100 Testkit
    "All that we are arises with our thoughts." - Buddha
    “When fate hands you a lemon, make lemonade.” - Dale Carnegie

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    Guest

    Re: ZeoSand

    Quote Originally Posted by H2O_Keeper
    Hate to Hijaak the thread but its a fit...

    I have seen all the controversary one way or the other about zeosand benefits. Was wondering if anyone in the forum or independent studies have been done to prove their claims of a smaller micron level of filtration?
    If you understand how a high rate sand filter works you will see that this is a bogus claim. Water is going to take the path of least resistance, which will be AROUND the grains and not through the pores. Grain size is often slightly smaller than filter sand so you might get slightly better filtration but then again, you can add some DE to a sand filter and increase the filtration (or, as I commit heresy according to some , change you sand if it is more than about 5 years old since old sand has the sharp edges worn down by erosion and becomes a less effective filter medium.)

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: ZeoSand

    From what I have seen, ZeoSand does appear to filter a little better than plain sand, but not anything like DE. As waterbear said the grain size is fairly large (compared to DE) so the filtering ability is limited. Still, ZeoSand appears to have more sharp edges than regular sand, which catch a little more stuff, even when comparing to new regular sand. Also, ZeoSand gets more complaints than any other kind of filter, not a high percentage but enough to notice.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: ZeoSand

    Spishex - thanks for the link to Richard's detailed post on zeolite and the explanation why it's not all that great for dealing with ammonia. I certainly see the logic -- and in fact it's not really my main concern, it was high calcium hardness. I figure the first step, though, is to find out whether the salt in a SWG pool renders it ineffective, and it seems it's much better known for its alleged ammonia skills and less for its alleged calcium cleansing properties, so I led with phrasing it as an ammonia question. You guys obviously didn't need to be treated so carefully, the responses here are remarkable. I think Richard is exactly right as to the ammonia issue.

    Waterbear - Great post on sand and DE. If it was really cleaner water I wanted, I'd go with your solution. My water looks terrific, though, so I don't know if I'd notice the difference with a more effective filter. The tips on cleaning a sand filter annually sound like a great idea - mine is 2 years old and I think I'll give it a try.

    Duraleigh - thanks for the welcome. You identified my real goal here: find a way to get rid of calcium, other than draining. My house has no municipal water supply, and my pool fill comes from a well filled with water from the Biscayne Aquifer under Miami, an aquifer imbedded in calcium-laden coral rock. CH in my pool is 500, and I suspect it's the reason why my skin feels "squeaky clean" - that is, the polar opposite of silky - and irritatingly sticky to the point of sharp twinges of pain sometimes. Draining my pool is no help -- the fill is just as laden with calcium. Here's the link that got me thinking Zeo-xxxx would help: http://www.poolwizard.net/problems/hardness.htm. To quote from the bottom of that page:

    "Zeolites, and clinoptilolite in particular, reduce pool water hardness when used as a filter medium in sand filters. They achieve this by ion exchange and adsorption of the calcium molecules. Regeneration with salt flushes the calcium out of the zeolite and it can then continue to remove excess calcium."

    I've really got two questions: (1) does whatever effect Zeo-xxxx may have get nullified by the fact it is being washed over constantly by salt in a SWG pool; and (2), if not, and SWG salt levels do not reduce its effectiveness, does Zeo-xxx do what that website claimed -- reducing calcium hardness?

    Thanks
    17,000 gallon in-ground Marsite pool
    Hayward S310T sand filter
    Autopilot Total Control SWG system
    Pentair Whisperflow WFE-24, 1 HP pump
    AquaCal Heatwave Model 120 heat pump
    Jandy Pool Digital Assistant for remote programmed
    control of pool pump, heat pump, light, waterfall

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    Re: ZeoSand

    CH in my pool is 500, and I suspect it's the reason why my skin feels "squeaky clean" - that is, the polar opposite of silky - and irritatingly sticky to the point of sharp twinges of pain sometimes. Draining my pool is no help -- the fill is just as laden with calcium.
    Good morning,

    While a CH of 500 is pretty high, it's not that bad. Many pools operate normally at that level. I would also not suspect CH as the cause of the symptoms you have mentioned......perhaps, but that would not be my first suspicion. I think it may be something else.

    If you could post a full set of test results, (including tests for FC and CC) we may see something else that is contributing to the problem. Also, tell us a little more about how your water looks, how you chlorinate, etc.

    I hate to speculate without test results but it may be that you have combined chloramines in your pool and simply eliminatiing them by shocking will cure the symptoms you describe.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: ZeoSand

    While ZeoSand does in theory have the ability to reduce the calcium level, it won't actually do that in practice. To get ZeoSand to absorb calcium and remove it from the pool you would need to frequently wash the ZeoSand with brine (water completely saturated in salt) and have the resulting rinse water not end up in the pool. Aside from the fact that normal filter plumbing makes that nearly impossible, you would need to do this quite frequently (more than once a day), it would end up adding a huge amount of salt to the pool (the ZeoSand will absorb some of the salt and release it into the pool later) raising the salt level to corrosive levels, and you would end up throwing away nearly as much, or more, water than simply draining and refilling requires.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Guest

    Re: ZeoSand

    Your CH is not that high. Keep your TA low to keep your water just slightly on the aggressive side and you will not have any problems with scaling nor with pH rise from your SWG. You might also want to consider adding borates to your pool in a 50 ppm concentration.

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    Re: ZeoSand

    Jason -- Your analysis of Zeolite makes a lot of sense. I'll stick with sand in my filter. Thanks.

    Duraleigh and Waterbear: I use a standard Taylor test kit, augmented with a version of their chlorine test that measures up to 20 ppm instead of the usual 5. A couple of weeks ago I replaced my Pool Pilot Digital chlorine generator system with the Total Control system, both by Autopilot. I decided to shock the 17000 gal pool at that time with 4 jugs of liquid chlorine, not because I thought there were any chloromines, but just to make sure they were 0.0 for the new system. The TC system controls an acid tank to keep my pH at 7.5, and it controls my SC-48 chlorine cell to keep the ORP at 660, which at my pH is a good chlorine level. Since the shock, both values are at their set points. My Taylor readings are: TC and FC 4.5, TA 80 (aggressive ever since I've had a SWG pool), CH 500, CYA 40, and ph 7.5. Water is clear, no sign of scale or discoloration, no odor of any kind, and of course no algae.

    I don't like the squeaky feel of the water in my pool, and while it might not be high CH, I want to get it down to CH 250 to find out. The sure way to go is to use my home's water softener by using house water for fill water instead of the well (both home and pool draw from wells), but that means draining half the pool and then slowly filling it, and then adding salt and getting the Total Control system back in equilibrium. I'll probably have to manually regenerate my home water softener lots of times, and it will be time consuming. And before I start, I need to find out how much water my system can produce before it needs to regenerate, so I don't wind up filling the pool with untreated water because the softener had not been refreshed. I was hoping to find an alternative, and thought zeolite-filled sand filter might be the answer, but apparently not. Chelating agents keep scale from forming, but don't take the calcium out. I wish there were something in a bottle you could add to the pool to make the calcium just precipitate out so I could vacuum it. Out in Arizona companies have trucks that drive around to treat pools and lower calcium; wish something like that were in Miami.

    Thanks for your help on this. It kept me from wasting some money, time and effort.
    17,000 gallon in-ground Marsite pool
    Hayward S310T sand filter
    Autopilot Total Control SWG system
    Pentair Whisperflow WFE-24, 1 HP pump
    AquaCal Heatwave Model 120 heat pump
    Jandy Pool Digital Assistant for remote programmed
    control of pool pump, heat pump, light, waterfall

  13. Back To Top    #13
    Guest

    Re: ZeoSand

    with the numbers you gave your CSI is just about perfect! (calcium saturation index) (I get a CSI of -.11, assuming a salt level of 3000 ppm as recommended by Autopilot, temp of 75 deg, and no borates) By dropping your calcium to 250 you will make the water more aggressive and possibly damaging to your plaster with a CSI of -.4! If you want to improve the feel of the water perhaps adding borates to 50 ppm might help.
    so-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-why-and-how-t4921.html
    This would change your CSI to -.16 which is still ideal for a SWG!
    If you were to lower your CH you would need to raise the TA by quite a bit to get your water balanced again and that would cause you to have a much increased acid demand to maintain the pH! (Or possibly leave the TA alone and raise the pH setpoint for the acid injection to 7.7 or 7.8 to get your CSI up to -.21 and -.11 respectively.)

    I would not mess with it since it's just about as perfect at you can get right now (unless you are considering the borates)!

    Also, if you could put the info about your pool and equipment in your signature it would be very helpful.
    pool-school/read_before_you_post

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: ZeoSand

    Thanks for the borate tip, Waterbear. I'll give it some thought, looks like a good idea. Also, added stuff to signature line as requested.
    17,000 gallon in-ground Marsite pool
    Hayward S310T sand filter
    Autopilot Total Control SWG system
    Pentair Whisperflow WFE-24, 1 HP pump
    AquaCal Heatwave Model 120 heat pump
    Jandy Pool Digital Assistant for remote programmed
    control of pool pump, heat pump, light, waterfall

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Guest

    Re: ZeoSand

    BTW, where in Miami? I grew up in the Gables and have lived in the Gables, Grove, Princeton, and near Calle Ocho and downtown.

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: ZeoSand

    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    BTW, where in Miami? I grew up in the Gables and have lived in the Gables, Grove, Princeton, and near Calle Ocho and downtown.
    I live between Dadeland Mall and Baptist Hospital, just south of Kendall Drive in South Miami-Dade. I sold my house on Jeronimo Drive in Coral Gables on the canal to live next door to my grandkids. That's who the pool is for!
    17,000 gallon in-ground Marsite pool
    Hayward S310T sand filter
    Autopilot Total Control SWG system
    Pentair Whisperflow WFE-24, 1 HP pump
    AquaCal Heatwave Model 120 heat pump
    Jandy Pool Digital Assistant for remote programmed
    control of pool pump, heat pump, light, waterfall

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Guest

    Re: ZeoSand

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord46
    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    BTW, where in Miami? I grew up in the Gables and have lived in the Gables, Grove, Princeton, and near Calle Ocho and downtown.
    I live between Dadeland Mall and Baptist Hospital, just south of Kendall Drive in South Miami-Dade. I sold my house on Jeronimo Drive in Coral Gables on the canal to live next door to my grandkids. That's who the pool is for!
    I grew up on Baracoa (2 blocks north of Miller) in between San Amaro and Alhambra.....right next to U of M! I know EXACTLY where you live. 2 of my brothers lived right around there! Small World!

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