Post Stain Removal

[Coler2002]

Hi TFP,

I have not introduced my self yet, i have been trolling for a few weeks. I have been a pool owner for 3 years now and have had nothing but problems. After reading about the BBB method it seems like a great fit for me.

A little history of the pool before i get into my problems. I bought a house with a pool 3+ years ago and for the first year I renovated the house and did not live there. For that year i opened the pool ran it and just dumped 3" tabs in occasionally, i had larger problems with the house and the pool was not a concern. After i moved in the first summer i opened the pool and did a marginal job caring for it. I took water samples to the local pool store and did what they said. The following year the problems started. When i opened the pool it was green so i shocked and it and from that point on it was never right. Once the water became clear there were terrible stains allover the liner. I had basically given up hope and was about to get rid of the pool. I decided to shut it down in the fall and deal with it in the spring. This spring i opened it and it was still stained. I shocked it with diclor and got the water clear and keep feeding it 3" pucks. This is when i decided to keep the pool and get serious about taking care of it. I contacted a local pool guy to come over and take a look. He said that the pool was to stained and said to just get a new liner. I was disappointed but felt like it was my own fault for letting it go.

Then i went online!! I found the Jacks stain ID kit, I tested the stains and found the the "iron Scale Treatment" made the stains vanish. Woo Hoo. I was so excited. So i proceeded to do the treatment: Link

I am 1 week out from that treatment and I now have a spotless pool that looks amazing, crystal clear water. However my chemistry is all crazy. I need advice on how to get my pool under check.


FC: .4
CC: 2.8
PH: 7.4
TA: 100
CH: 230
CYA: >100 (too High to test)


I know i need to get rid of cya and i think the only option is to drain and refill, I am nervous about metals in my well water. I just spent a ton of cash and time removing the stains i don't want to put them back in. I am currently using Jacks Blue Stuff as recommended after the stain removal. I also have a CuLator ultrapak 4.0 in now.

I also need to bring up my FC to SLAM levels, but jacks recommend not "Shocking" for 1 week after the treatment. I have been adding liquid chlorine slowly.

Please advise me in the proper order to do things.

Sorry if that was long winded

Thanks

 

[Swampwoman]

Good morning, and welcome.

First, the immediate concern:

After a stain treatment, you need to bring the chlorine back up slowly, and often the excess stain remover will battle the chlorine, so you have to keep adding to get it to hold without going overboard.

BUT you need to avoid high slam levels, or the stains will come back...so dose and test and dose until you're holding.

Its best to entirely avoid slamming when you have metals because slamming oxidizes metals. The way to avoid same is to never let your chlorine get so low, and keep the level according to the cya:chlorine cart (see my link.)

So first off, get your chlorine back up a.s.a.p. Did you add polyquat60 (an algaecide) during the treatment?

Why do you feel you need to slam? Do you have an signs of algae? Or are you basing that on the high ccs? If its the high ccs, there's a chance that its from the chlorine and ascorbic acid fighting, so if that's the only reason, wait a bit and get your FC up to a normal level first, then check back in.

People unfamiliar with metals will often suggest slamming at the first sign of anything being off, like ccs, but slamming at cya over 100 AND when you have metals becomes a Sophie's choice

So I say get to your proper FC level first, make sure your cc level isn't a chem-combo cc from treatment, and keep your FC above normal level for a bit, but not Slam level til you've had time to make sure you really need it.

NOW...future plan re well water with metal....

If you need to slam, then you're going to need to do at least a partial drain first...and the truth is you need to drain anyway to get to a lower cya level.

In either case, there are two things you can do to try to pre-filter the iron before adding the water:

1. Fill-Er-up slimebag ( The Slime Bag | The Easiest Way To Maintain Crystal Clear Pool Water. )

2. Metal Trap filter (more expensive Amazon.com : Metal Trap 25 Pool Garden) or a cheaper PreFresh filter (good for 8,000 gallons) Amazon.com : Pre Fresh Garden Hose End Water Filter all purpose, pool, spa, hot tub, pets, car wash : Garden Hose Parts : Patio, Lawn Garden

Using extra sequestrant, eg a start-up dose when filling, will help avoid problems but you can't use if youre already at slam level...and if you slam there's always a chance the metal will oxidize and tint the water...sometimes the pre-treatment with sequestrant can avoid that, but its really hard to predict...and it also depends on just how much metal is in the source water.

If that happens, then the slimebag filter for a return would help get the oxidized metal out.

I realize this all sounds a bit tricky, but on the bright side, when you get everything in balance and use the TFP maintenance method to manage, you wil be able to go literally YEARS, if not forever, without having to mess around again


Another thing you might want to get is a pool iron and copper test, eg. lamotte's, to see how much the culator is reducing the iron. Amazon.com : Lamotte Insta Test Copper Garden

The goal with metals is, like cya, reduce to a manageable level (except of course you need some cya, whereas no metals is preferable...but those of us on well just can get there short of trucking water!)

Lastly, I now have plumbed a dual tank water softener to my pool fill spigot, and as such through makeup water, have gotten my iron level down to .3 ppm this year. I still use sequestrant (metal magic specifically...for me I liked it a bit better than jack's pink or blue because I could let my ph be higher) but have nowhere near te trouble I did in the beginning.

Hope that helps give you tools for a plan of action

 

[Coler2002]

Swampwoman wow thanks!!!

To answer your questions

Yes i used an algaecide. Should i do a monthly dose until i get everything back to normal?

I thought i need to slam due to the high CC. The pool water is really clear.

I added 1 gallon of chlorine to the pool last night after i tested. I have been trying to slowly bring up FC because that's what jacks said to do, i am unsure what slowly is. Based on pool calculator i need to add 1 gallon to get to 4ppm. I thought that was a small step. I retested tonight and i still have .4 FC however my CC climbed to 7.4! I am hoping this is due to the stain removal stuff. I will continue to slowly add chlorine.

The scumbag seems amazing! Is it to good to be true? I know with other things you tend to get what you pay for. Are the metal trap filters better? I plan to try a scumbag to use when i refill. I want to keep as many metals out of the pool.

Last night i found a water report for my well water it was done 3 years ago so i dont know how that changes year to year. It stated .2ppm copper, .04ppm iron, PH 6.1. So now i dont know how all the metal got into the pool. I ordered a metal test kit hopefully that will answer some questions.

 

[Swampwoman]

Good morning. Your well is pretty good based on those readings...it may be just that the concentratin in your pool built up over time, or the previous owner used products with copper, etc. Sometimes decomposing debris contain iron, and while in an above ground its less likely, fertilizer can blow in or get spilled, which also adds iron.

If your water is really clear, I'd avoid slamming at the moment because I suspect the ccs are chemical in nature -- but I would be anxious to get your chlorine up to level since you've now gone a week.
I'm not sure exactly what's in jack's stain removal, but I'm assuming its similar to when I've done the Ascorbic Acid treatments.

When I've done those, I just would add a gallon, wait an hour, read the FC, then add a gallon again...in other words, I treated it like the beginning of a slam, but stopped once I got to 7 ppm -- this may not be correct but I was unwilling to go any longer without chlorine. I've noticed a lot of people who do the AA treatment here end up with algae from leaving it low too long, which then starts the vicious cycle

I'd asked about the algaecide to get a sense of whether or not you were facing algae just yet -- the polyquat, in my experience, will also consume / fight chlorine a bit in IME...and I've seen similar reports from others.

Btw, to conserve reagents, when you test the FC, just go to the 10 ml mark and for the moment, unless youre curious, don't worry about the ccs until your holding FC. Do try to get that FC up right away so that you can avoid slamming and get a water change going on

Then as soon as you get the slimebag, go ahead and do a partial water change since it sounds like your well level is lower than your water metal You might find that your cya is higher than 100 and you have to dilute your pool a few times to get it down to a manageable level, but be sure to add more sequestrant each time you make a major addition.

Re metal trap -- I didn't buy it to try it, because by the time I'd read about it, I had things under control and had the softened water plumbed to the spigot. I do use the Prefresh for my hot tub, which is near a hard water spigot, and it clearly works, because if I don't use it, I get iron tint to water immediately until I put in sequestrant - whereas as soon as I started using it, no more iron color to the water. (My well is closer to 2 ppm iron and let me tell you, you're lucky with yours

I've heard great reports, though, about the Slimebag, and figure with an above-ground, which doesn't always filter as easily, it would still be useful to you even with te metals under control

Keep me posted about getting that FC up as soon as possible and remember, even if you get a bit of mild staining back, you'll be able to take care of it because hopefully the culator and sequestrant together with the pre filtering will keep things much more manageable.

I don't want to make you afraid to slam, I just want you to judiciously avoid it if possible -- if the water starts to cloud at ALL, then that's the road to go and your metal control efforts may well keep things in line. I've just noticed a few too many people slamming a clear pool with high ccs after a treatment and am trying to save you the frustration

I'm also assuming you've read up on the cya:chlorine level ABCs of pool care, etc. so that you're ready for TFP style maintenance.

One last note, with metals, unless you're using Metal Magic which calls for ph above 7.5, its best to try to keep your ph around 7.2, or at least under 7.5, as higher ph will cause metal staining. That's part of the reason javks and mm say not to shock right after...shocking increases ph.

 

[Coler2002]

So yesterday I got my FC up to 4ppm and when I check this morning it was back to 1.5ppm

I tried to get the FC back up but I ran out of bleach after 2 gallons and a few hours it only climbed to 2ppm

Also it's getting a little bit cloudy.

So I am now convinced I have to slam to get my cc's down.

Should I drain and fill before or after slam?

How much bleach will it take? I have been through 8 gallons this week and I can't keep FC up

I think I was to nervous about adding clorine after the stain removal. I should have gotten my FC up sooner and I could have avoided this.

Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks

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[Swampwoman]

Good morning, Coler. At a Cya of 100, you needed to be between 7 - 12 ppm for "regular" maintenance (see the cya:chlorine chart in my signature.) Anything lower than 7 allows the algae to grow.

Slamming with cya over 100 will take a riddiculous amount of chlorine, I'm afraid. So yes, you absolutely want to drain as much as you can first and get that cya in line. That will be a good move going forward anyway.

While it might sound wasteful, get the FC up over 7 right now, even while you're draining in order to minimize the amount of slamming you'll have to do after refilling

Every slam is different, but count on needing dozens of gallons as opposed to a handful. Sorry you have to go down this road...but you're now armed with quite a bit more knowledge and options to come out the other side with a trouble free pool, and getting that cya handled will go a long way on that front.

Make sure you read up on the process and the levels....if you keep the FC closer to 12 while you're doing the water changes, you might even manage to avoid a protracted slam. So first and foremost, get that FC up

 

[Coler2002]

This morning I got my FC up to 6ppm then I started to drain. I lowered the water level from 48" to 24" so appropriately 50% of the volume of the pool!

Hopefully this will lower my cya to a reasonable lever and allow me to slam with out using a truck load of bleach. With a cya lever well over 100 (I was guessing 150 based on the test) it would take replacing 75% of the water to get to 40. I didn't like the idea of going that low I already saw a small wrinkle starting .

At the current rate of 1 inch an hour it should be filled by late tomorrow morning.

Should I use a large dose of jacks blue stuff? To help with any metals I added from the well.

Also my well water has low PH. When I slam my PH will climb correct? Should I try and get it correct post slam?

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[Swampwoman]

Good morning. If by low ph, you mean it tests lower than 7.2, adjust up to 7.2 for the slam.
With jacks blue, I'd likely add now while you're below slam, but if the instructions say to not slam for a week, there's a chance it will not work well -- that's your call

You'll need to know you're starting cya reading - I'm crossing my fingers that its 50

 

[Coler2002]

Finally got the pool refilled! It took forever. I hit it with some bleach and borax this morning. I just got home and tested and I am at

FC 1ppm
CC 5ppm
PH 7.2
TA 70
CH 120
CYA 70!!!!


So I know I need to get my FC up and I have already added 2 gallons. But my question is the same as before should I drain and refill before I slam or should I try to slam with a CYA of 70? It is better than it was but still not good.



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[Swampwoman]

Hi there. Sorry I'm so late in responding but I'm slammed with hubby who ad surger and doing h work of 2 right now

I would drain again, as slamming is harder at 70, in my opinion. How does the water look? Cloudy? greenish? I will check back in am before taking h to surgeons followup.

 

[Coler2002]

No worries take care of the family!!

Water looks good maybe just a touch cloudy but better then before the first drain and refill. I just tested and FC is up to 9

I really want to get my CYA down so I can use less chlorine.

How do people that constantly use 3" tabs keep there cya down? It seems like its a scam to force you to use more and more product. I have to help my dad convert to the TFP method. He's been using tabs forever I bet his CYA is threw the roof.

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[Swampwoman]

My goodness, forgive all my ipadian typos last night...that should have read surgery and work of two

So I am thinking one more water change, then maybe bumping up the FC just a little more to 10 ppm at night and doing the OCLT (overnight chlorine test) to see if you loose more than 1 ppm before dawn would tell you whether you really need to slam or not.

If you loose more than 1 ppm while there's no sunlight, then you need the slam, but it will still be a heck if a lot shorter and easier with the cya lower Sendin ya the mojo