Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    311

    Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    Dear Masters,

    After all this time learning from TFP forum and the log book I been reading thru on my pool conditions, I think Richard ( Chem Geek ) last guess on my cloudy water is the closest possibility, its most likely oil.

    I have to narrow down some more, so Masters please help.

    01. Few cloudy occassions were assumed to be calcium clouding. Shocking the pool worked, so its not likely calcium clouding.

    02. Few cloudy sessions been the work of bather loading and excessive rain. Shocking the pool worked.

    03. There were cloudy sessions that resulted in my Slime Bag and cartridge filters getting excessive greenish tint to it, so I am assuming I had early algae boom that failed to bloom full green because I shocked the pool fast enough.

    04. Lately my pool has been getting alot of divers again and only 2 days ago I had 9 people in the pool. Immediately the pool clearity was gone and mild hazy cloudiness occured right after they completed the dive training, the sparkling water was lost. Later 48 hours of pumping at 5 hours per turnover is not helping even at 3ppm FC ( CYA +-20 ). FC loss was normal over period of the two days, in fact was on the low side.

    I am trying to narrow down the mild clouding issue, it seems that the current one I am having is body oil and cosmetic issue by majority if not entirely. There are 3 ladies among the divers, ladies wear more make-up naturally. The diving session started at 6PM, that means all 7 students and 2 dive instructors are in their "dirtiest" state. Lots of sweat and what ever body oil accumulated in their 9 to 5 job. I had it as a regulation that they are to take a BATH not just a rinse before entering the pool. I even prepared shampoo and antiseptic liquid soap for them in the bathroom. However the common mentality that "rinsing" is sufficient and why take a full bath when after the pool session they will take a REAL BATH anyway....may have caused a few students not to take a REAL BATH prior to pool use. I know ladies and some men will not use normal soap for their faces ( I use anything except detergent... ) and will only want to use their own shampoo brand. The face has the highest oil content due to cosmetics and the hair too. So I am now dealing with human habits, something I can't control unless i peek into the bathroom... , then they will arrest me as a peeping Tom...LOL.

    I know I can shock the pool to 12PPM FC to get back the clarity but I am getting sick and tired of doing that. I need to floc the oil and catch it with the filter. The slime bag at 1 micron is not good enough for speedy recovery. I am also going to follow Papa WaterBear advice to soak the cartrigde filters with detergent for a while, hoping whatever oily film get removed and the media can catch more oil.

    I been doing some research and I came across Chitosan as a floc agent for water treatment. In the US they sell it as SEA-KLEAR Particle Remover System. I choose Chitosan because it is bio-degradable and its much safer than PAC or all other stonger floc chemicals according to their MSDS. Believe it or not, some diet pill is Chitosan based. It is said to be able to absorb the oil/fat in your food..bla bla bla. What I read on why these small partciles are hard to filrter is also because they are negatively charged, so it floats around for a long time in mid water. My pool is 4 meters deep and the main drain at the bottom and the water inlet is 1+ feet only from the surface. In theory I may have like 3+ meters of water colum where the super fine particle can hoover around clouding my pool but hard to get sucked by the filtration system.

    So I surfed the net and found the video from SEA-KLEAR demonstrating their Particle Remover System. The theory is simple, those diluted oil from sunscreen and body oils are 0.2 micron size group. Chitosan will make them floc together, so they got bigger in szie and the filters can catch it. It does make sense. This S-K company also does storm drain water treatment and I have researched on it and got all the way to LD50 Trout mortality rate stuff. I can say with confidence that this Chitosan is definitely safer than chlorine. What I am trying to say is, rather than having high FC level to keep shocking the pool to oxidize the body oil, I think a Chitosan floc will be a better alternative and hopefully faster too. This is assuming I am correct that this mild cloudy session is because of body oil issue.

    I can buy Chitosan locally but in powder form for pharmaceautical use. There is one seller that sells Chitosan in liquid form for the use of food preservation. It is said that Chitosan has anti-bacterial quality. The S-K parent company also sells such anti-bacterial technology for clothing and bla bla bla.

    So if my local Chitosan can work like how I see S-K Particle Remover System works, I then will not need to waste money on importing S-K from USA. The shipping and chemical import permit issue with the Custom will kill me when I import those into my country.

    I been looking at the reccomended bather per square meter of pool area issued by the British Water????? ( can't remember the association ). It said that less than 1 meter deep, 2.2 square meter per person. 1.5 meter deep its 2.7 square meter per person. More than 1.5 meter deep, its 4 square meter per person. My pool is approx 50 square meters but 60% is deep at 4 meters. So assuming that I am using 4 square meters per person rule, I can do 11 bathers. However my log book have proven/noted that divers carry more "contamination" than Speedo bearing swimmers... .

    What do you Seniors think ? Did I narrow down correctly to body oil issue ?

    Most Grateful,

    SPP
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,085

    Re: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    I would say that you are on the right track, but only an experiment using the Chitosan product you are considering will tell you for sure. At some point, one must just get practical and if shocking with chlorine gets annoying and you don't mind spending some money for greater convenience and faster return to water clarity, then that's what you should do.

    It's also a matter of personal preference. Our 16,000 gallon pool usually only has my wife swimming in it every day during the week, yet there is usually a film of, most likely, suntan lotion on the surface of the water. It is usually still there the next day, though tends to break up when the cover is off (I've tried scum balls, with little success -- possibly due to the cover interfering with good surface circulation). If I demanded perfect water clarity at all times, I'd be shocking and/or adding clarifiers and pulling my hair out whenever more junk got into the water. Instead, I just live with it since it gets to a certain point and doesn't get worse. Of course, it's not nearly as extreme a situation as what is going on in your pool, so it really does come down to personal tolerance, cost and choice. And I don't dare tell my wife not to use sunscreen (or to use less).

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  3. Back To Top    #3

    In the Industry
    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    28,415

    Re: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    And I don't dare tell my wife not to use sunscreen (or to use less).
    Ah, grasshopper, you are wise beyond your calendar years.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  4. Back To Top    #4
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    You probably won't be able to get it over there, but you could also try an enzyme product like Pool Perfect or something similar.

    There are things that chlorine will break down, but more slowly than one would prefer. Using enzymes can speed up the breakdown process significantly, which sounds like it would help the situation you describe.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    311

    Re: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    Hello Gentlemen,

    Jason, I can't get any fancy brand that you guys can have in the USA. I must source its industrial chemical equivalent.
    This is why I am interested in Chitosan because its available locally but I just found out that the type is not for water treatment, not yet. It has to be processed further to be for such specific use....sad.

    Anyhow, my pool today is worse. I bumped up FC to 5 yesterday, hoping it won't be too strong as divers are going to use the pool again this Sunday.

    I think I am looking at worse clouding is because the FC is trying to oxidize the oil in the water too slowly..is this likely ?
    At 5 FC is too mild or more like half-done. I always get good result if I shock to 12 FC. The problem is I can't see any oily film, just cloudy water.

    I am kind of sad over this cloudy issue.
    I will still buy the Chitosan to experiment. I will buy the food preservative version just to play with it in a controlled test.
    I been surfing all over to get more info on Chitosan type for water treatment but my poor chemistry knowledge is making me more confused...

    Let me report back to you guys when I can test the Chitosan.

    Cheers
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    311

    Re: Cloudy water - possibilities narrowed down

    Aha.....something else new I discovered.

    5 of the divers were wearing new wetsuits, masks , fins and snorkel. The rest of the gears are in-house gears, well used.
    I know all plastic products have sort of wax mold release when new and for the neoprene wetsuit its fabric and it does smell funny when new, there must be something "post manufacturing" it will release in a chlorinated pool.

    Add those to sweat, body oil, oily hair = I am screwed....
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •