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Thread: Genesis Trichlor

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    Genesis Trichlor

    Quick question for anyone familiar with this product. This is trichlor but I don't believe it is 90% as it is powder form and the msds has it at 67%. I know with the 90% pucks 10 ppm chlorine also adds 6 ppm CYA. Does anyone know how much CYA is added with this product?

    Thanks in advance.
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    It's 67% Trichlor by weight; this is not the % Available Chlorine. The 90% you are thinking of with Trichlor pucks is the % Available Chlorine; the weight % of Trichlor in pucks is nearly 100% (usually around 98% or so). So the FC and CYA introduced by this Genesis Shock product from Leslie's is just 2/3rds the amount from the equivalent weight of Trichlor pucks. One pound of Genesis Shock in 10,000 gallons would raise the FC by 7.3 ppm and the CYA by 4.4 ppm.

    By the way, the rule that "for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor it also increases CYA by 6 ppm" is independent of concentration or purity of product and also independent of pool volume. That's what makes it such a nice rule.

    You'll probably find that the Trichlor powder doesn't dissolve quite as well as other powders, such as Dichlor, Cal-Hypo or lithium hypochlorite. It would be great if you would let us know your experience with it.

    I wonder what's in the other 33%? I'm not sure why this product is "cut down" in purity. Does it say on the label what the inert ingredients are and their weight %?

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    It's 67% Trichlor by weight; this is not the % Available Chlorine. The 90% you are thinking of with Trichlor pucks is the % Available Chlorine; the weight % of Trichlor in pucks is nearly 100% (usually around 98% or so). So the FC and CYA introduced by this Genesis Shock product from Leslie's is just 2/3rds the amount from the equivalent weight of Trichlor pucks. One pound of Genesis Shock in 10,000 gallons would raise the FC by 7.3 ppm and the CYA by 4.4 ppm.

    By the way, the rule that "for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor it also increases CYA by 6 ppm" is independent of concentration or purity of product and also independent of pool volume. That's what makes it such a nice rule.

    You'll probably find that the Trichlor powder doesn't dissolve quite as well as other powders, such as Dichlor, Cal-Hypo or lithium hypochlorite. It would be great if you would let us know your experience with it.

    I wonder what's in the other 33%? I'm not sure why this product is "cut down" in purity. Does it say on the label what the inert ingredients are and their weight %?

    Richard
    Thanks for clearing that up for me Richard. I use 6% Chlorox year round but it is almost time to bring my CYA up to 30-40 ppm. In lieu of adding the CYA separately this year, I came across this product but have not bought it yet. I will let you know what the label says as I am going to run out to the pool store and check it out.
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
    Pentair Cartridge Filter
    3/4 hp Sta-Rite Pump
    2 hp Whisperflo Spa Pump
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Most granular trichlor products are sold as a treatment for black spot algae because they are so slow dissolving. While they can be used for shocking that would NOT be my first choice.

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Richard:

    I have the Genesis Trichlor and its label is 67% trichlor and 33% "other." Sorry, it does not say what the "other" is comprised of. The percentage of available chlorine is 60%. Based upon my calculations, it actually cost me roughly 10% more than dichlor on an equivalent basis as I utilized 67% available in my initial calculations as opposed to the 60%. However, the dichlor would have added more CYA than I desired.

    Waterbear, this product dissolves very quickly in the pool. No pre-mixing was required at all. Will let you know if I see any problems with its use.

    Mike
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Sorry, it does not say what the "other" is comprised of.
    It's CYA.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    No, it's filler. When an ingredient label says 67% Trichlor (or trichloroisocyanuric acid or 1,3,5-trichloro-1,3,5-triazinane-2,4,6-trione), the 67% is a combination of chlorine and CYA in one molecule. Normal Trichlor pucks are about 98% pure and have very little filler or binder. The % Available Chlorine of 60% is consistent with the 67% Trichlor by weight (technically, 66.66% Trichlor has 61.0% Available Chlorine).

    This product is way over-priced if it's more expensive than Dichlor. As seen in this post, Trichlor is normally less expensive than Dichlor per pound and a lot less expensive per % Available Chlorine (at the same weight). The fact that it is only 67% Trichlor makes it even more expensive for the amount of chlorine you get.

    As far as the amount of CYA added, the purity of the product doesn't change the relationship of FC to CYA. With any Trichlor, for every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 6 ppm. For any Dichlor, for every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

    One pound of this "cut" Trichlor powder product in 20,000 gallons will increase FC by 3.6 ppm and CYA by 2.2 ppm.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    No, it's filler.
    Yikes!!

    Thanks, Richard
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    No, it's filler. When an ingredient label says 67% Trichlor (or trichloroisocyanuric acid or 1,3,5-trichloro-1,3,5-triazinane-2,4,6-trione), the 67% is a combination of chlorine and CYA in one molecule. Normal Trichlor pucks are about 98% pure and have very little filler or binder. The % Available Chlorine of 60% is consistent with the 67% Trichlor by weight (technically, 66.66% Trichlor has 61.0% Available Chlorine).

    This product is way over-priced if it's more expensive than Dichlor. As seen in this post, Trichlor is normally less expensive than Dichlor per pound and a lot less expensive per % Available Chlorine (at the same weight). The fact that it is only 67% Trichlor makes it even more expensive for the amount of chlorine you get.

    As far as the amount of CYA added, the purity of the product doesn't change the relationship of FC to CYA. With any Trichlor, for every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 6 ppm. For any Dichlor, for every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

    One pound of this "cut" Trichlor powder product in 20,000 gallons will increase FC by 3.6 ppm and CYA by 2.2 ppm.

    Richard
    Richard:

    The genesis trichlor did cost roughly 10% more than dichlor when compared based upon raising chlorine 1 ppm. Each is much more expensive than utilizing good old Clorox (only cost me .55 to raise by 1ppm). I am using it due to 1) it is time to raise my CYA and the volume of Trichlor I bought will get it to roughly 36 ppm versus the higher number that dichlor would produce and 2) my pH tends to rise so the lower pH value of the trichlor will conserve my use of dry acid. When finished with the genesis, I will revert back to Clorox. I think I mentioned to you before that I prefer Clorox over the house brand bleach as my pH does not rise as much with the Clorox.

    Will keep you posted if I notice any strange things to my water balance!
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
    Pentair Cartridge Filter
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    At Leslie's, the Genesis Shock shown here is about $20 for a 6-pack with each pack being 10 ounces, but since only 67% pure this is equivalent to 6.7 ounces of normal Trichlor pucks. So that's $20/(6*6.7) = 50 cents per ounce of pure Trichlor. Even the more economical 36-pack is $107.64/(36*6.7) = 45 cents per ounce.

    20 pounds of pure Trichlor pucks shown here at Leslie's is $60 so that is $60/(16*20) = 19 cents per ounce of pure Trichlor.

    The nearly pure Dichlor shown here from Leslie's is $31.19 for 8 pounds. This is equivalent in FC content to 77-1/2 ounces of pure Trichlor so is $31.19/77.5 = 40 cents per ounce of equivalent pure Trichlor. However, if you want to look at the price comparing what you get in CYA instead of FC since that's why you are really buying the product, then 8 pounds of Dichlor is equivalent to 116 ounces of Trichlor so the cost would be $31.19/116 = 27 cents per ounce.

    Basically, the Genesis Shock is a rip-off. If you wanted to easily add CYA to your pool, the least expensive approach is to use pure CYA, but if you wanted to just use a chlorine source to add to CYA, then Trichlor pucks would be the next best and then Dichlor after that.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    At Leslie's, the Genesis Shock shown here is about $20 for a 6-pack with each pack being 10 ounces, but since only 67% pure this is equivalent to 6.7 ounces of normal Trichlor pucks. So that's $20/(6*6.7) = 50 cents per ounce of pure Trichlor. Even the more economical 36-pack is $107.64/(36*6.7) = 45 cents per ounce.

    20 pounds of pure Trichlor pucks shown here at Leslie's is $60 so that is $60/(16*20) = 19 cents per ounce of pure Trichlor.

    The nearly pure Dichlor shown here from Leslie's is $31.19 for 8 pounds. This is equivalent in FC content to 77-1/2 ounces of pure Trichlor so is $31.19/77.5 = 40 cents per ounce of equivalent pure Trichlor. However, if you want to look at the price comparing what you get in CYA instead of FC since that's why you are really buying the product, then 8 pounds of Dichlor is equivalent to 116 ounces of Trichlor so the cost would be $31.19/116 = 27 cents per ounce.

    Basically, the Genesis Shock is a rip-off. If you wanted to easily add CYA to your pool, the least expensive approach is to use pure CYA, but if you wanted to just use a chlorine source to add to CYA, then Trichlor pucks would be the next best and then Dichlor after that.

    Richard
    Richard:

    I bought the genesis for right at .22 per oz. so it will cost me roughly $1 to raise FC by 1 ppm. The quantity I bought will yield 60 ppm FC and 36 ppm CYA. The amount of bleach to yield the same FC would cost me $33 plus I would have to add the CYA. I did not check CYA prices but I assumed roughly $20 for 5 lbs. That puts pricing very close.
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
    Pentair Cartridge Filter
    3/4 hp Sta-Rite Pump
    2 hp Whisperflo Spa Pump
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    You got a better deal for the product than I described, though 22 cents per ounce for the impure product is like 33 cents per ounce of pure Trichlor. That is, 33 cents is better than the 45 cents (Trichlor equivalent) for Genesis at Leslie's, but it's not as good as the 19 cents for Trichlor pucks/tabs though somewhat comparable to the 27 cents if you used Dichlor. Pure CYA here is $20 for 7 pounds, but 7 pounds of pure CYA is equivalent to around 200 ounces of pure Trichlor so that's $20/200 = 10 cents per ounce which is clearly cheaper than even Trichlor, but of course you aren't getting any chlorine with it.

    The 60 ppm FC and 36 ppm CYA you describe in 20,000 gallons would be about 26 10-ounce bags of Genesis product -- that is, 260 ounces or around $57. This is equivalent to about 173 ounces of pure Trichlor pucks/tabs which would cost around $33. So Trichlor pucks/tabs would clearly be cheaper for the identical result (except the tabs dissolve more slowly). It would take 190 ounces of Dichlor to get to that same 36 ppm CYA and that would cost around $51, though you'd use it more quickly since it has less chlorine content (i.e. you'd switch back to using bleach sooner). With pure CYA, it would take 96 ounces that would cost around $10, but as you point out you'd have to continue using bleach.

    Even with your better deal, Trichlor pucks/tabs are still quite a bit less expensive, Dichlor is roughly comparable, and pure CYA even accounting for bleach is also less expensive. If you factor in that you wanted acidity, then the Trichlor pucks/tabs look even better.

    This isn't a big deal -- we're only talking about a $25 difference here -- I just don't want people to think that Genesis is an inexpensive source of Trichlor since it's not.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    I get your point. The granular trichlor is clearly not cost effective. Since I switched to BBB a few years ago I took my in-line feeder out so I do not use pucks anymore. I also wanted to raise my cya quickly thus the granular choice. Having said all of this, dichlor would have been a better choice economically but I also wanted to see if the trichlor would help keep my pH down to acceptable levels. I have been running 7.8-8.2 for at least 6 months. I have read the literature from Ben's old site about running a high pH pool but I know that chlorine is not nearly as effective at 8 as it is at 7.2.

    What are your thoughts on running at a pH value of 8? They (whoever "they" are) say don't fight your water!
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
    Pentair Cartridge Filter
    3/4 hp Sta-Rite Pump
    2 hp Whisperflo Spa Pump
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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    When you have CYA in the water, it's not true that chlorine is that much less effective. With no CYA in the water, going from a pH of 7.5 to 8.0 lowers the active chlorine level by a little over 50%, but with CYA in the water the drop is a little less than 15% so not a big deal. I wouldn't worry about running at a somewhat higher pH, at least as far as chlorine disinfection and algae prevention is concerned. Just increase your FC target a little bit, perhaps by 0.5 ppm should be fine. The bigger concern would be scaling if other components were high so check the saturation index using The Pool Calculator to be sure and lower your TA. Also, to prevent a rise in pH, you should consider lowering your TA level (see Lowering Total Alkalinity for how to do this). There is also some higher eye irritation the further away you are from 7.5.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Genesis Trichlor

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    When you have CYA in the water, it's not true that chlorine is that much less effective. With no CYA in the water, going from a pH of 7.5 to 8.0 lowers the active chlorine level by a little over 50%, but with CYA in the water the drop is a little less than 15% so not a big deal. I wouldn't worry about running at a somewhat higher pH, at least as far as chlorine disinfection and algae prevention is concerned. Just increase your FC target a little bit, perhaps by 0.5 ppm should be fine. The bigger concern would be scaling if other components were high so check the saturation index using The Pool Calculator to be sure and lower your TA. Also, to prevent a rise in pH, you should consider lowering your TA level (see Lowering Total Alkalinity for how to do this). There is also some higher eye irritation the further away you are from 7.5.

    Richard
    Thanks for the info Richard. Based upon our discussion from last year, I have previously lowered my TA to the 50-60 range and that seems to keep me pH in the 8 range but I was always concerned about the effectiveness of the chlorine at the higher value. It is good to know that the CYA helps with this. Also, I love that pool calculator you linked. I have used that round Taylor watergram but this calculator is great!
    Mike
    20,000 gallon in-ground gunite with attached spa
    Pentair Cartridge Filter
    3/4 hp Sta-Rite Pump
    2 hp Whisperflo Spa Pump
    Ray-Vac cleaner

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