Sand vs Cartridge...yet another thread

sande005 · May 17, 2023

My 32 yr old PF-50 stainless sand filter gave up. Clamp band broke, and long out of production. So new filter time.
One dealer is pushing a Pentair 420 cartridge, with an add on valve so I can pump to waste/drawdown in the fall. They are downplaying sand.
The other dealer only recommends a Pentair SD 60 or 70, with their "magic" "Ruby Sand".
Yep, I've searched and read a LOT of TFP posts for info....but still undecided.

Usual conditions:
Pool gets pumped down below the jets each fall. Snow fills it. Can be a lot of dirt to vac in the spring.
I can get heavy cottonwood, elm seeds and pine pollen in the spring. - usually over by mid-June.
There are dogs using it - we brush and use skimmer socks, but....
Just today converted to a SWCG, which is up and running. So I hope for far, far less algae vacuuming.
There are periods of a week or more of inattention (trips, etc.). For more than a few days, I SLAM and shut it down, so still possibility of Algae blooms.

I've never been pleased with the sand performance - very slow to clear suspended particles. Old filter is a bit undersized. Have tried DE addition, fliter bags on the outlets, zeolite, and of course various clarifiers/flocs. Mostly to little avail.

Pentair says their sand version has a fine filter on the internals that filters to low micron numbers. The Ruby Sand is also supposed to filter to 3 micron (but I was burned by Zeolite, so don't trust that at all). The filter looks to be a royal pain to change out sand, if ever needed. But, with a larger size and the internal filter, will it do a better job than my old???

The cartridge seems fine, but the cartridge's from Pentair are really expensive - do aftermarkets perform as well for far less? The sand guy says I'll be cleaning the filters weekly (!) Given the above conditions, likely or not?

Still waiting for callbacks from 2 other dealers, so ultimate selection is still in flux...

Any further opinions on which way to jump?

Jimrahbe · May 17, 2023

sande005 said:
The cartridge seems fine, but the cartridge's from Pentair are really expensive -

S,

They are about $200 bucks and last 5 to 10 years. Not really too expensive..

I replaced my cartridges after 7 years because I got antsy I could not tell the difference between the old cartridges and the new cartridges.

I have a CCP-520 and clean it twice a year, although I could go a whole year between cleanings but I get antsy... :mrgreen:

Thanks,

Jim R.

1poolman1 · May 17, 2023

sande005 said:
My 32 yr old PF-50 stainless sand filter gave up. Clamp band broke, and long out of production. So new filter time.
One dealer is pushing a Pentair 420 cartridge, with an add on valve so I can pump to waste/drawdown in the fall. They are downplaying sand.
The other dealer only recommends a Pentair SD 60 or 70, with their "magic" "Ruby Sand".
Yep, I've searched and read a LOT of TFP posts for info....but still undecided.

Usual conditions:
Pool gets pumped down below the jets each fall. Snow fills it. Can be a lot of dirt to vac in the spring.
I can get heavy cottonwood, elm seeds and pine pollen in the spring. - usually over by mid-June.
There are dogs using it - we brush and use skimmer socks, but....
Just today converted to a SWCG, which is up and running. So I hope for far, far less algae vacuuming.
There are periods of a week or more of inattention (trips, etc.). For more than a few days, I SLAM and shut it down, so still possibility of Algae blooms.

I've never been pleased with the sand performance - very slow to clear suspended particles. Old filter is a bit undersized. Have tried DE addition, fliter bags on the outlets, zeolite, and of course various clarifiers/flocs. Mostly to little avail.

Pentair says their sand version has a fine filter on the internals that filters to low micron numbers. The Ruby Sand is also supposed to filter to 3 micron (but I was burned by Zeolite, so don't trust that at all). The filter looks to be a royal pain to change out sand, if ever needed. But, with a larger size and the internal filter, will it do a better job than my old???

The cartridge seems fine, but the cartridge's from Pentair are really expensive - do aftermarkets perform as well for far less? The sand guy says I'll be cleaning the filters weekly (!) Given the above conditions, likely or not?

Still waiting for callbacks from 2 other dealers, so ultimate selection is still in flux...

Any further opinions on which way to jump?

When they are needed, virtually no one ever buys OEM cartridges. There are many manfacturers of aftermarket cartridges. With proper care and lower speed water they can last many years.
If you've not been happy with sand, likely a new one won't make you happy.
However, used properly, they do an excellent job. Sand doesn't wear out, but with many backwashes you do lose some, typically about 5lb/year. When it is too low in the tank performance goes away.
Virtually all large water parks, public pools, schools use very large sand filters, some 8-10 feet in diameter and usually there are three per body of water.

Newdude · May 18, 2023

sande005 said:
I've never been pleased with the sand performance - very slow to clear suspended particles.

Those will stay no matter what. Sand filters filter almost 4x finer than the human eye can see. The 'floaties' sit there suspended, like you said, and take several days to find the filter. (where they are promptly gobbled up). But in those couple of days, it was breezy and more blew in. It's a never ending cycle.

I have a 500 sq ft cart filter and a diverter valve to waste between the pump and filter. I can go all year with cleanings, probably more.

Jrock817 · May 18, 2023

i love the cartridge filters. i have 3 sets of filters over 6 years. I buy new sets when they go on sale in December on Amazon. set 1 is oldest, I run it when I open the pool, after the first two days, put set 2 in, and just swap them a few times until my water is nice and clean, then set 3 is my entire season, usually have to clean them twice max over 5-6 months. cleaning them I use an electric power washer with least aggressive tip that still cleans them. i went crazy one year trying to soak them in solution, and really deep clean, but power washing gets them nice and fresh each time. my buddy with sand loves his set up, but any time there is an issue, its an issue that takes days to fix, granted he doesn't have to open his filter housing and swap out filters and clean them, its a simple backwash.

sande005 · May 18, 2023

To elaborate - I'm talking about the time between eventually being able to see if there is a main drain in the deep end, or not(!) 'Tis not the issue of being able to see the particles directly, it is the light scattering they produce making the water hazy to opaque. Like not being able to see the sun due to wildfire smoke. Never have I been at a point to think about being an entrant in the past "clarity" photo contest. Those must be all photoshopped (!) With LOTS of vacuuming to waste and lots of time (weeks), and maybe floc, I can get it to be pretty decent, though. It would be nice to be able to get to that point faster, with lots less waste water and no floc.

Just for more info - the old filter had a 200 lb sand capacity. It is all plumbed with 1 1/2 pipe. Given the 25,000 gal pool, and even with the 1 1/2 HP Challenger pump, on recent research it seems I have been pretty undersized all this time.

dleonard1122 · May 18, 2023

I've been a big fan of my cartridge filter. Cleaning before putting it away last winter was as easy as hosing the cartridges down with a garden hose, and I've been very happy with the clarity of our water.

bloodfromastone · May 18, 2023

sande005 said:
My 32 yr old PF-50 stainless sand filter gave up. Clamp band broke, and long out of production. So new filter time.
One dealer is pushing a Pentair 420 cartridge, with an add on valve so I can pump to waste/drawdown in the fall. They are downplaying sand.
The other dealer only recommends a Pentair SD 60 or 70, with their "magic" "Ruby Sand".
Yep, I've searched and read a LOT of TFP posts for info....but still undecided.

Usual conditions:
Pool gets pumped down below the jets each fall. Snow fills it. Can be a lot of dirt to vac in the spring.
I can get heavy cottonwood, elm seeds and pine pollen in the spring. - usually over by mid-June.
There are dogs using it - we brush and use skimmer socks, but....
Just today converted to a SWCG, which is up and running. So I hope for far, far less algae vacuuming.
There are periods of a week or more of inattention (trips, etc.). For more than a few days, I SLAM and shut it down, so still possibility of Algae blooms.

I've never been pleased with the sand performance - very slow to clear suspended particles. Old filter is a bit undersized. Have tried DE addition, fliter bags on the outlets, zeolite, and of course various clarifiers/flocs. Mostly to little avail.

Pentair says their sand version has a fine filter on the internals that filters to low micron numbers. The Ruby Sand is also supposed to filter to 3 micron (but I was burned by Zeolite, so don't trust that at all). The filter looks to be a royal pain to change out sand, if ever needed. But, with a larger size and the internal filter, will it do a better job than my old???

The cartridge seems fine, but the cartridge's from Pentair are really expensive - do aftermarkets perform as well for far less? The sand guy says I'll be cleaning the filters weekly (!) Given the above conditions, likely or not?

Still waiting for callbacks from 2 other dealers, so ultimate selection is still in flux...

Any further opinions on which way to jump?

With all due respect, unless I'm misunderstanding, you said you didn't like how the 32 year old sand filter worked. Consider how old the filter was. Back 32 years ago, it probably was the best money could buy. Like all things, products improve. Is it possible that a sand filter made in 2022-2023 would work better than even a new one would have in 1991? Do you want to have to clean cartridges every week or so? Vs backwashing a sand filter? Personally, I wouldn't want to have to purchase all the extra cartridges to be able to swap them out every time they needed to be cleaned. Back washing is so much easier. Just cleaning my pond filter is a task I wish I didn't have to do and that's easier than cleaning pool cartridge filters.

Newdude · May 18, 2023

bloodfromastone said:
I wouldn't want to have to purchase all the extra cartridges to be able to swap them out every time they needed to be cleaned

When well cared for they should last years and years. My old set was 8.5 years and going strong when we moved, with only 1 set.

I take mine apart to put them away for the winter anyway so I clean them then. Once a year is nothing. I clean them once the spring crud is done also, but that's on me that i chose to. I don't have to.

sande005 · May 18, 2023

Hence the questions. It seems each likes what each has. Filter cleanings unlikely to be weekly, and more a 1 to 2 times a season (maybe). Replacements not a frequent purchase. But perhaps having a better sized sand, with improved internals will be "as good"?

Anyone with a Sand Dollar replaced their sand? (In case I don't like the "magic" Ruby Sand the dealer wants to sell me). Seems to be a port on the bottom that opens, and then the sand is flushed out using a hose in the top. A rare thing to to, but seems like having a 350 lb sand delta all over the equipment area is not optimal....my old I could open and scoop it out for haul away.

bloodfromastone · May 18, 2023

Newdude said:
When well cared for they should last years and years. My old set was 8.5 years and going strong when we moved, with only 1 set.

I take mine apart to put them away for the winter anyway so I clean them then. Once a year is nothing. I clean them once the spring crud is done also, but that's on me that a chose to. I don't have to.

Okay, but, OP asked for opinions. I never said they wouldn't last. I also never said someone had to buy new ones every year. You'd have to have a set of clean ones ready to swap out for the dirty one(s), and then clean the dirty one(2) and set that aside for the next time the filter needs cleaning. As I stated, and obviously it's just my opinion, because that's what the OP asked for, the process involved in caring well for cartridge filters would be the reason I opted against them. I said a sand filter is easier vs cartridge. You have every right to prefer to spend the extra time and energy caring for your cartridges. It's not for me. I have kids, who have friends, and live near a secondary main street in a small city, so fine dust and dirt constantly. And trees and bugs. If you're lucky enough to only have to clean cartridges once or twice a year, I'm happy for you. You clearly live a very perfect life with no complications and plenty of free time. Not everyone's pool is going to be as pristine as yours sounds like it is all the time. Not everyone is going to have the time and/or energy to put into cartridges that you have been blessed to not need. I'm sure you'd agree that I can have different opinion based on my own experiences and consideration.

Have great day.

Newdude · May 18, 2023

bloodfromastone said:
I'm sure you'd agree that I can have different opinion based on my own experiences and consideration.

I MOST certainly do. Thanks for sharing.

The point was with large enough cartridges, most of the downsides of carts are a moot point. If you only have to clean at the end of the season, as you should deep clean any filter, you don't need spare carts for the downtime.

bloodfromastone said:
so fine dust and dirt constantly. And trees and bugs

I had 80 oaks on an acre at the old place. I FEEL ya. Believe me I do.

Honking large *any filter* is the answer to remove frequent cleanings.

sande005 · May 18, 2023

I didn't take Newdude's comment as a contradiction to yours, blookdfromastone. He was relating his experience. And you clearly would prefer not to have to clean cartridges. Suspect, I think (that was picked up on) was the Dealer's assertion that I would have to clean them weekly. That seems to be far, far from the case. More likely, really heavy periods (like on opening) might require a cleaning. Maybe again after "tree" season. But in my case, those have always been periods of massive vac to waste and backwashing. Like 10" of water lost from the pool massive, to avoid dense clouding. So it seems the hassle factor is converging. BUT, the unknown is whether a new, bigger sand filter would level the field, and even go the other way to where simple, less frequent waste and backwashing would be the norm. Since it is all so dependent on my very local conditions, it is beginning to look like a coin toss and hope whatever it ends up being doesn't bite me!

Newdude · May 18, 2023

sande005 said:
it is beginning to look like a coin toss and hope whatever it ends up being doesn't bite me!

Go large either way. As large as you can afford, and find a way to free up funds for the backbone of the operation. As much as any of us would rather spend the funds on bubblers or patio furniture, you won't have time to be enjoying them if you skimp on the equipment.

1poolman1 · May 18, 2023

sande005 said:
To elaborate - I'm talking about the time between eventually being able to see if there is a main drain in the deep end, or not(!) 'Tis not the issue of being able to see the particles directly, it is the light scattering they produce making the water hazy to opaque. Like not being able to see the sun due to wildfire smoke. Never have I been at a point to think about being an entrant in the past "clarity" photo contest. Those must be all photoshopped (!) With LOTS of vacuuming to waste and lots of time (weeks), and maybe floc, I can get it to be pretty decent, though. It would be nice to be able to get to that point faster, with lots less waste water and no floc.

Just for more info - the old filter had a 200 lb sand capacity. It is all plumbed with 1 1/2 pipe. Given the 25,000 gal pool, and even with the 1 1/2 HP Challenger pump, on recent research it seems I have been pretty undersized all this time.

Very undersized filter, very oversized pump.
Likely your system was "channeling," water was bypassing the sand bed down the sides and could even have caused "channels" (they look like termite tubes) in the sand bed. Many examples with a Google search.
A 200# sand filter likely had a rated flow of no more than 45-48gpm. Even at 40 ft. head (an average for most pools) your Challenger pump is trying to move twice that amount. It literally blows the dirt through the filter rather than it being trapped.

sande005 · May 18, 2023

Hmmm, pool stores seem to not want to sell anything. Not having gotten a call back from three, I drove around to them to see if in person would work. One was VERY unknowledgeable about anything, one was 2 months out for installs, one had their door locked and wondered why no one was coming in (and had no idea as to when they could do an install).
I bit the bullet, and went with a Pentair 420 Cartridge. That place could be out in a few days. And they will replumb as much as possible to 2" pipe. Hoping I have a future with a "Less Trouble Pool" even if it may not be 100% Trouble Free.
Thanks to all above who gave great advice and information!

sande005 · May 25, 2023

Earlier threads discussed my conversion to a SWCG, and then just as that was completed (same day), the failure of my VERY old PF-50 sand filter. After debate and consultation here, I went with a Pentair CCP420 cartridge filter. That was installed last evening.

So, 10 days running the SWCG on "recirc", which kept my Cl at 6 (20% setting, 1800 rpm on the pump 244/7). Yippee, no algae sign at all. But with no filter LOTS of dirt piling up (especially due to a few rain events).
Gave it overnight for the glue joints to dry. Fired filter up this morning.
Vac'd the deep dirt buildup where it was clearly in drifts. With the old filter, that would have meant filling an additional 5-6" of water (~2400 gallons), vac to waste. Then repeat. Old filter would never have handled that much load, it would just blow back from the returns. So 4-5K gal of water wasted. And I could move the vac head faster, since the pump was on full rpm.
Then brushed everything. Made clouds to the point where I couldn't see the main drain. Again, with the old one, that would mean 4-5 days to see the drain, and probably floc with more vac to waste. Another 4-5K gal of water.

This morning - initial vac increased pressure by 1 psi (!). After brushing, I could see the drain become visible in minutes(!) Total time about 35 min. Previously would have several hours, interspersed with lots of time refilling pool and waiting for it to slowly, slowly clear. And flooding my wife's garden with thousands of gallons of waste water (where the waste was directed to).

Not a "bash" on sand filters at all. Clearly (pun intended) the advice here was spot on - way too big of a pump driving way too small of a filter.

Now that I am into diminishing returns (as there is less in the water to capture), it will be interesting to see how quickly it becomes crystal clear. Sure, maybe a few days of repeated brushing, but that is easy peasy.
And can now play with the pump/SWCG settings to bring down the FC a bit....

The elm and cottonwoods have started to "rain", so we'll see....but based on the initial experience, I wonder what I will do with all the spare time? A shame all the hours wasted over the years I've dealt with the beast due to a poorly configured initial equipment setup.

mknauss · May 25, 2023

Great the new filter is working well.
Please update your signature with your new equipment.

Jrock817 · May 26, 2023

bloodfromastone said:
With all due respect, unless I'm misunderstanding, you said you didn't like how the 32 year old sand filter worked. Consider how old the filter was. Back 32 years ago, it probably was the best money could buy. Like all things, products improve. Is it possible that a sand filter made in 2022-2023 would work better than even a new one would have in 1991? Do you want to have to clean cartridges every week or so? Vs backwashing a sand filter? Personally, I wouldn't want to have to purchase all the extra cartridges to be able to swap them out every time they needed to be cleaned. Back washing is so much easier. Just cleaning my pond filter is a task I wish I didn't have to do and that's easier than cleaning pool cartridge filters.

Lol clean cartridges every week. Do you think anyone would use them if that were the case? No one is right or wrong here, we are giving him our opinion.

ngsm13 · May 26, 2023

bloodfromastone said:
Okay, but, OP asked for opinions. I never said they wouldn't last. I also never said someone had to buy new ones every year. You'd have to have a set of clean ones ready to swap out for the dirty one(s), and then clean the dirty one(2) and set that aside for the next time the filter needs cleaning. As I stated, and obviously it's just my opinion, because that's what the OP asked for, the process involved in caring well for cartridge filters would be the reason I opted against them. I said a sand filter is easier vs cartridge. You have every right to prefer to spend the extra time and energy caring for your cartridges. It's not for me. I have kids, who have friends, and live near a secondary main street in a small city, so fine dust and dirt constantly. And trees and bugs. If you're lucky enough to only have to clean cartridges once or twice a year, I'm happy for you. You clearly live a very perfect life with no complications and plenty of free time. Not everyone's pool is going to be as pristine as yours sounds like it is all the time. Not everyone is going to have the time and/or energy to put into cartridges that you have been blessed to not need. I'm sure you'd agree that I can have different opinion based on my own experiences and consideration.

Have great day.

How about all the extra time 'backwashing' and wasting water into the environment. Guess how many times I've don't that with my cartridge filter? None. Zero.

Zero investment in time THE ENTIRE SEASON. None. Zero minutes. Worry-free.

Clean at the end of the season and that's that. Also, no buying DE or looking at a sight glass or any other tedium.

Looks like OP took the leap. With a properly sized Cart Filter... You're one step closer to a TFP.

#IMO

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Sand vs Cartridge...yet another thread

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