New Build (Houston) - Questions on Quote

BDY · May 3, 2022

All,

Thanks in advance for any insight or recommendations – we are in the final stages of starting a new build for an in-ground pool in the Houston area and have settled on a project to redo the backyard with a pool. The landscape company uses a pool partner so that they complement each other on the grading/drainage/landscape, and in fact when we interviewed other pool companies we kept coming back to liking this one. We have their quote, and I have some specific questions and would appreciate any overall thoughts.

Specific Questions:

SWCG – all the pool companies we quoted strongly discouraged a SWCG and in fact the builder we like said he personally ripped his out 5 years ago on his home pool. They prefer chlorine + bromates. I have for the last year wanted to go with a SWCG but am facing stiff pool builder pushback. Will SWCG really etch/eat into the coping/deck? Will it be hard to maintain? We are told that SWCG used to be in demand but now the builders (we talked to 4) rarely do it...
Automation – There is an option for a Pentair Easytouch 8. It sounds good on paper. Would there be any reason not to do it?
Chemistry – There is an option for a Pentair Intellichem system. Again – it sounds good on paper especially when combined with a SWCG, but I would appreciate any thoughts on it.
The autofill will be plumbed to sprinkler line (untreated water) rather than to water softener line. Our hardness is 8.0 and chlorine is 3.0 (roughly) – would untreated water entering pool be a big issue vs linking to softener? My wife points out that with all the rain we get, the pool will get a heavy dose of rainwater anyway.
I would appreciate any thoughts or tips on the overall below:

Quote:

Pool Area	11x29 (319 sq ft)
Perimeter	80 lf
Depth	3’6” – 5’0”
Volume	12,000 gallons
Filter	520 Pentair Cartridge
Pump	2 HP Pentair Intelliflo
Skimmer	(2) Pentair Bermuda
Light	(2) Pentair Microbrite RBG
Return Inlets	(8) adjustable inlets, 2” line, 1.5” inlet
Fountains	(4) spray nozzles on corners
Chlorinator	Rainbow
Main Drain	(1) 8” set w/ 3” line
Piping	PVC Sch 40 Jandy 3-way valves
Overflow	2” to storm sewer
AutoFill	¾” PVC under coping to hose bib with autofill (tied to sprinkler line)
Excavation	By hand - dig and wheel (nb: yes, they cannot get equipment to back yard)
Line:	Skimmer 2” Return 2” Cleaner 1.5” Overflow 2” Nozzles 1” Nozzle Suction 2” Main 3”
Steel	Beam (4) #4 Walls #4 12” o.c.e.w. with (2) rows Floor #4 12” o.c.e.w. with (2) rows
Structural	Beam 12” Gunite Walls 12” Gunite Floor 12” Gunite
Tile	6" at water line
Coping	n/a
Plaster	Pebble
Seats	3 steps entire width of pool at and - 20"/12"/12"
Equipment:	leaf net, wall brush, handles, test kit,
Water Treatment:	includes stabilizer, initial balance and startup chemicals
Robot	Polaris 280
Suction Line	plumbed to pad

Again thanks so much for any insight or recommendations!!

regards
Brian

chazas · May 3, 2022

I will leave it to others to give you more detailed advice, but Texas poolbuilder pushback on SWGs is just weird. I've had them in two different pools and they're great, but the same discussion happens over and over again with TX builders in FB pool groups.

No, they don't corrode stone or concrete or metal, the salt concentration is too low. No, the pool is not hard to maintain, it's easier. You may have to add a little acid routinely to combat rising pH but in return you don't have to lug jugs of liquid chlorine, fight rising CYA from tabs, or fight almost any algae blooms. The very mention of "bromates" makes me shudder.

Last time I checked the forum was not in favor of Itellichem, too picky and don't last.

pjt · May 3, 2022

BDY said:
They prefer chlorine

A SWG pool is a chlorine pool. Instead of buying chlorine at the store, you generate it yourself via the SWG.

BDY said:
all the pool companies we quoted strongly discouraged a SWCG

Why?

BDY said:
but am facing stiff pool builder pushback

It's your pool, your money, and your decision, not the builder's.

BDY said:
Will SWCG really etch/eat into the coping/deck?

No.

BDY said:
Will it be hard to maintain?

No. In fact it makes pool maintenance much easier.

BDY said:
There is an option for a Pentair Easytouch 8. It sounds good on paper. Would there be any reason not to do it?

EasyTouch is an older generation of automation. The current Pentair automation is IntelliCenter.

BDY said:
The autofill will be plumbed to sprinkler line (untreated water) rather than to water softener line.

I have mine setup the same way, and I like it so far. What's your fill water pH, TA, and CH?

BDY said:
3’6” – 5’0”

3'6" is a little shallow. I'd suggest increasing the depth of the shallow end to 4'.

BDY said:
2 HP Pentair Intelliflo

Upgrade to the 3.95 THP 011028 or 011056.

BDY said:
Rainbow

Ditch this and get a SWG.

BDY said:
¾” PVC under coping to hose bib with autofill (tied to sprinkler line)

Have them install a sprinkler valve so you can control your fill line as a zone of your irrigation system.

BDY said:
By hand - dig and wheel (nb: yes, they cannot get equipment to back yard)

Yikes!

BDY said:
Polaris 280

Ditch this and get a robot.

BDY said:
Suction Line

Not really needed.

Jimrahbe · May 3, 2022

BDY,

I've got a question for you... Whose pool are you building, yours or the pool builders???

We do not recommend the IntelliChem. We believe that the pool owner can do a better job of adding any chemicals rather than an automated system that often does not do its job.

I live in Texas and have three saltwater pools. I'd just as soon not have a pool at all if they could not be saltwater pools. Easy to maintain, you just have to be smarter than the average pool builder. :mrgreen:

The EasyTouch is a great system, but it is older now. The replacement is called the IntelliCenter and cost about the same as an EasyTouch with ScreenLogic.

You need to decide on the SWCG soon, as you want your EasyTouch or IntelliCenter to come as a package with an internal SWCG power center and the salt cell.

As yourself this... Why would Pentair sell a SWCG system if it destroyed your pool? Does that make any sense at all?

Good pumps and good filter. I like robot cleaners better that the Polaris with booster pump.

Why does coping say N/A????

Thanks,

Jim R.

sktn77a · May 3, 2022

Pool builders tend to have regional/cultural preferences (biases).

Get the SWG system if that's what you want.

SaltyBHouston · May 3, 2022

Hey Brian, fellow Houstonian here and just finished my build in January. Congrats on the new build, we have the perfect climate for it! We got the same push-back from several of the PBs including the one we ended up choosing. Using the TFP method combined with the SWCG is VERY simple and I would do it again.

How did you test your fill water? I think you are saying the PH is 8 and FC is 3.0? For reference, my fill, (SW Houston), is PH 7.8, FC 1.

A few thoughts on your quote:

1. I definitely wish we would have gone to 4' or 4'2" in the shallow end
2. Make sure the pump is a VS or VSF
3. Only two lights?
4. I would recommend Pebble Sheen over Pebble Tech
5. Consider one of the electric cleaner robots

This community has been SO helpful, follow the advice of the TFP Experts and you cant go wrong.

Toxophilite · May 3, 2022

They are really going to hand dig and wheelbarrow out the dirt on 12,000 gallon pool ?????

BDY · May 3, 2022

chazas said:
I will leave it to others to give you more detailed advice, but Texas poolbuilder pushback on SWGs is just weird. I've had them in two different pools and they're great, but the same discussion happens over and over again with TX builders in FB pool groups.

No, they don't corrode stone or concrete or metal, the salt concentration is too low. No, the pool is not hard to maintain, it's easier. You may have to add a little acid routinely to combat rising pH but in return you don't have to lug jugs of liquid chlorine, fight rising CYA from tabs, or fight almost any algae blooms. The very mention of "bromates" makes me shudder.

Last time I checked the forum was not in favor of Itellichem, too picky and don't last.

Thanks for the insight!

BDY · May 3, 2022

pjt said:
A SWG pool is a chlorine pool. Instead of buying chlorine at the store, you generate it yourself via the SWG.

Why?

It's your pool, your money, and your decision, not the builder's.

No.

No. In fact it makes pool maintenance much easier.

EasyTouch is an older generation of automation. The current Pentair automation is IntelliCenter.

I have mine setup the same way, and I like it so far. What's your fill water pH, TA, and CH?

3'6" is a little shallow. I'd suggest increasing the depth of the shallow end to 4'.

Upgrade to the 3.95 THP 011028 or 011056.

Ditch this and get a SWG.

Have them install a sprinkler valve so you can control your fill line as a zone of your irrigation system.

Yikes!

Ditch this and get a robot.

Not really needed.

Not sure how to respond to all of the postings, so am responding one by one. Apologies in advance.

re why? the PB say that the PH is easier to maintain with chlorine and bromates than with SWGC, and that the SWGC eats equipment and limestone
re fill water.. not sure about PH, the TA is 8 and the chlorine is 3
re depth - will review thanks.
re pump - is the upgrade b/c of the HP or quality of pump or size of pool? or just in general bigger is better?

thanks Brian

BDY · May 3, 2022

Jimrahbe said:
BDY,

I've got a question for you... Whose pool are you building, yours or the pool builders???

We do not recommend the IntelliChem. We believe that the pool owner can do a better job of adding any chemicals rather than an automated system that often does not do its job.

I live in Texas and have three saltwater pools. I'd just as soon not have a pool at all if they could not be saltwater pools. Easy to maintain, you just have to be smarter than the average pool builder.

The EasyTouch is a great system, but it is older now. The replacement is called the IntelliCenter and cost about the same as an EasyTouch with ScreenLogic.

You need to decide on the SWCG soon, as you want your EasyTouch or IntelliCenter to come as a package with an internal SWCG power center and the salt cell.

As yourself this... Why would Pentair sell a SWCG system if it destroyed your pool? Does that make any sense at all?

Good pumps and good filter. I like robot cleaners better that the Polaris with booster pump.

Why does coping say N/A????

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks Jim
It was just after hearing it from all of them I find myself second guessing myself.
I will ask about the Intellicenter.
coping N/A is my mistake faithfully copying the quote. The coping was in another quote which was for the patio. It will be 2" think 12" limestone
regadrs
Brian

BDY · May 3, 2022

SaltyBHouston said:
Hey Brian, fellow Houstonian here and just finished my build in January. Congrats on the new build, we have the perfect climate for it! We got the same push-back from several of the PBs including the one we ended up choosing. Using the TFP method combined with the SWCG is VERY simple and I would do it again.

How did you test your fill water? I think you are saying the PH is 8 and FC is 3.0? For reference, my fill, (SW Houston), is PH 7.8, FC 1.

A few thoughts on your quote:

1. I definitely wish we would have gone to 4' or 4'2" in the shallow end
2. Make sure the pump is a VS or VSF
3. Only two lights?
4. I would recommend Pebble Sheen over Pebble Tech
5. Consider one of the electric cleaner robots

This community has been SO helpful, follow the advice of the TFP Experts and you cant go wrong.

Hi Salty
I think we will be using the pool 8-9 months out of the year (we hope!)
fill water is 8 hardness and 3 chlorine. I have not tested for PH. the test was by the water softener company earlier this year when they were installing the systems.
1 - noted!
2 - the pump is variable speed. is that what you mean?
3 - there was one, and we added two. Using the lumens per sq foot method from Jandy? we came up with 2.4 lights. There is not a way to dim them that I know of, so would it be better to round up or down? We were thinking dimmer was better than spotlighted?
4 - noted!
5 - we will likely be inheriting an electric robot from relatives who are moving out of a pool with a house, so I think this line item will not be fulfilled....

I am reading this community every night!

BDY · May 3, 2022

Toxophilite said:
They are really going to hand dig and wheelbarrow out the dirt on 12,000 gallon pool ?????

In one of life's ironies - when the builder built the house they raised the elevation above the neightbors yards. On one side - we are blocked by a tree and the neighbor garage. On the other side we are blocked by the gas meter and the neighbors fence. Even if we could convince our nice neighbors to tear out all their ivy, there is a 12" differential in height on either side of fence. The PB's said that cost difference to bring a path to our level, stabilize it for the weight of the the bobcat, and then take it down again when done was about equal to the hand digging.

they are estimating a week to dig...They said they hand dig more often than people think especially in neighborhoods when the houses are close together.

Brian

pjt · May 3, 2022

BDY said:
the PB say that the PH is easier to maintain with chlorine

Again, a SWG pool is a chlorine pool. pH is very easy to maintain.

BDY said:
bromates

Avoid bromates or bromine with a chlorine pool. Stick with only chlorine and you don't need anything else for an extremely sanitary pool.

BDY said:
SWGC eats equipment and limestone

Definitely doesn't damage equipment. Limestone may be susceptible to deterioration with all pools, but it's more a function of the quality of the stone. Improper chemistry eats equipment and limestone.

BDY said:
re fill water.. not sure about PH, the TA is 8 and the chlorine is 3

When you get a proper test kit (TF-100 or K-2006C), you can test your fill water. Your TA isn't 8. I'm in The Woodlands and my fill water has pH of 7.8, TA 330, and CH 75.

BDY said:
is the upgrade b/c of the HP or quality of pump or size of pool? or just in general bigger is better?

The 011028 (VS) and 011056 (VSF) are the gold standard for pumps. The will work more efficiently at lower RPMs, which is how you'll operate your pump most of the time.

BDY said:
round up or down? We were thinking dimmer was better than spotlighted?

Round up. You want your entire pool to be illuminated with minimal shadows or dark areas.

BDY said:
we will likely be inheriting an electric robot from relatives who are moving out of a pool with a house

That's great--do you know the model?

gingrbredman · May 4, 2022

BDY said:
the PB say that the PH is easier to maintain with chlorine and bromates than with SWGC

Besides Texas builders being hard headed about SWCGs, one constant with just about every PB, is they do not understand pool chemistry at all, so any advice they give, should be taken with a grain of salt (pun intended). There may be some PBs out there who do understand the TFP methods, we have a few on this board, but almost as constant as Florida PBs recommending smaller filters, PBs are just not the ones to listen to for pool chemistry advice. And when they use the argument like they did, which again, is garbage, you can be sure the reason they don't like SWCGs is for reasons other then pool chemistry.

SaltyBHouston · May 4, 2022

BDY said:
Hi Salty
I think we will be using the pool 8-9 months out of the year (we hope!)
fill water is 8 hardness and 3 chlorine. I have not tested for PH. the test was by the water softener company earlier this year when they were installing the systems.
1 - noted!
2 - the pump is variable speed. is that what you mean?
3 - there was one, and we added two. Using the lumens per sq foot method from Jandy? we came up with 2.4 lights. There is not a way to dim them that I know of, so would it be better to round up or down? We were thinking dimmer was better than spotlighted?
4 - noted!
5 - we will likely be inheriting an electric robot from relatives who are moving out of a pool with a house, so I think this line item will not be fulfilled....

I am reading this community every night!

2 - yes, VS = Variable Speed, VSF = Variable Speed/Flow. Go with the recommendations from PJT on models, 011028 (VS) and 011056 (VSF).
3 - Agree that more is better, I have 4 total, 1 Spa 3 pool, and if I did it again, I would add 2 more.

Also, depending on how much sun your pool gets, consider a chiller. My pool is in full sun, and I am concerned that the water temps are going to be pretty high in dog days. My pad was not sized for a chiller, so if I install one, I am going to have to be creative. Definitely better to do it at the beginning.

BDY · May 4, 2022

SaltyBHouston said:
2 - yes, VS = Variable Speed, VSF = Variable Speed/Flow. Go with the recommendations from PJT on models, 011028 (VS) and 011056 (VSF).
3 - Agree that more is better, I have 4 total, 1 Spa 3 pool, and if I did it again, I would add 2 more.

Also, depending on how much sun your pool gets, consider a chiller. My pool is in full sun, and I am concerned that the water temps are going to be pretty high in dog days. My pad was not sized for a chiller, so if I install one, I am going to have to be creative. Definitely better to do it at the beginning.

Thanks!
Waiting to hear back on the pumps from the PB.
We will Be 50/50 shade and sun, and we considered a chiller but didn’t go with one for various reasons.

When increasing the pump size i assume that filter and line size have to also size up
To match? Is it as simple as just add bigger pump or have to size up the rest of it as well (i assume the latter?)

Brian

BDY · May 4, 2022

pjt said:
Again, a SWG pool is a chlorine pool. pH is very easy to maintain.

Avoid bromates or bromine with a chlorine pool. Stick with only chlorine and you don't need anything else for an extremely sanitary pool.

Definitely doesn't damage equipment. Limestone may be susceptible to deterioration with all pools, but it's more a function of the quality of the stone. Improper chemistry eats equipment and limestone.

When you get a proper test kit (TF-100 or K-2006C), you can test your fill water. Your TA isn't 8. I'm in The Woodlands and my fill water has pH of 7.8, TA 330, and CH 75.

The 011028 (VS) and 011056 (VSF) are the gold standard for pumps. The will work more efficiently at lower RPMs, which is how you'll operate your pump most of the time.

Round up. You want your entire pool to be illuminated with minimal shadows or dark areas.

That's great--do you know the model?

I will have to look at the mode this weekend. It’s brand new as their old robot failed after 8 years.
What is the downside to bromates and additive? If i understand i helps somw
Chemistry but hurts others?
Thanks!
Brian

chazas · May 4, 2022

BDY said:
I will have to look at the mode this weekend. It’s brand new as their old robot failed after 8 years.
What is the downside to bromates and additive? If i understand i helps somw
Chemistry but hurts others?
Thanks!
Brian

Bromine is a different sanitizer than chlorine, best used for hot tubs. It’s a disaster in pools.

BDY · Mar 22, 2023

I promised @Newdude pics of the finished pool and here they are. The biggest physical challenges included burying the house power line and moving the pool to accommodate new Houston codes for distance, as well as the plasterer ignored the PB purchase order and put the wrong brand/color plaster on (they chipped it off and replastered). But we love the finished product!!

(apologies for not posting during the build … we got a little overwhelmed in life events….)

Newdude · Mar 22, 2023

The mailbox *clearly* has a story. Go on then.

:epds:

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