First tests with proper test kit; and is it time to replace some water?

Dirk · Jan 12, 2023

PoolStored said:
If you can't get a baseline in whatever lighting, or can't get a standard, Taylor designed the test using outdoor lighting (confirmed by call to Taylor).

Please elaborate on this. I've always assumed the pictures of the test that Taylor provides on their own website were taken in controlled indoor conditions. How do we know otherwise? Who called Taylor, and who at Taylor confirmed this, about testing CYA outdoors? I've spoken to Taylor's lead support guy, on a different matter, and found him to be quite helpful, though I cannot now remember his name.

Why Monitor Cyanuric Acid?

More to the point, neither of these Taylor-produced YouTube videos say anything about testing outdoors, and clearly the tests in each video are being done indoors.

Sidebar: there appears to be a new Taylor CYA test, though I'm not sure it's any better/easier. Uses the same "dot."

To support your post, on this page (on Taylor's site), there is a section that reads:

Lighting concerns
Incandescent lighting, fluorescent lighting, and sunglasses make it very difficult to match colors. Always try to perform tests in natural daylight. Hold the comparator at eye level and keep your back to the sun. If testing in natural light is not an option, try our Day Light Comparator Lamp (part #9199).

So it would appear that even Taylor is providing conflicting info on this topic.

To support my post, I test under LED light with a temperature that closely matches daylight (though not as "strong," I'm sure). I have a multi-LED light strip that eliminates shadows and, IMO, is extremely consistent. And because my "testing station" is located in a room that has no windows, my testing is unaffected by outdoor conditions (time of day or night, day of year, weather, etc). I realize a setup like this is not going to be available to all of us.

PoolStored said:
If you follow Taylor instructions, but do it indoors, you will get a much higher CYA value vs. actual.

Is that statement from Taylor, or your theory? I have not found this to be true, at all.

PoolStored said:
Here is where I think we can agree. If you get a standard solution (say 50ppm), and use it in whatever particular lighting that you can to get a standard visual. Then use that same lighting when you test and confirm a consistent visual to the standard, Good To Go.

In theory, yes, but I think we've filled more than one thread here at TFP with folks having trouble with the standard solution. Like, a lot of trouble, if I recall. In essence, though, this aligns with the method I use. But, again, I'm not relying on the true CYA number. I'm relying on what the dot looks like to me, in my dungeon, at 70ppm, which keeps my FC level stable throughout the summer (which, all said and done, is all I'm after).

And to be clear, I'm not trying to evangelize my MO, just describing what works for me in my pool.

Dirk · Jan 12, 2023

Just to belabor ('cause that's what I do)...

Notice in the pic I provided above the color of the cabinets vs the color of the light switch and outlet. They are actually both stark white. My phone cam is greatly exaggerating the effect, but the cabinets are being lighted by the overhead room light, while the wall fixtures are being lighted by the LED light. You can imagine trying to color match under one vs the other.

The point being, regardless of where you think testing is best done, the lighting can make a pretty big difference. So that's something to be aware of. Strive to test under light with a temperature (color) as close to sunlight as possible, or, I'm loathe to say, outside!

Either way, as much as possible, do whatever you do the same way each time.

dailygenesis · Jan 12, 2023

Just a follow up -- I tested CH again using some of the tactics mentioned above (mostly just trying to slow down and make sure the drops were full each time) and ended up at 500. Was 525 last time (but kind of on the border between 500/525) but regardless, this is pretty far off the previous values I was getting around 575. So, maybe I was just not doing it right before. But that said, my technique is the same for other tests and those have stayed pretty consistent even with trying to improve techniques.

Oh, I also built a lighting isolation chamber in which to read my test results -- it perfectly mimics the color temperature of sunlight at all angles, but at an optimum intensity so as not to overpower... just kidding on that

PoolStored · Jan 12, 2023

dailygenesis said:
maybe I was just not doing it right before

Prolly just squeezing drops too fast. Do you have a speed stir? The CH test in particular is more tricky without a speed stir. The "fading endpoint" can be tricky. It will turn, but if you let it swirl a bit it will go back. Look at this for info on the "fading endpoint." Speedstir helps avoid the fading endpoint. Let it swirl a couple seconds and it may turn back. Hope this helps...

Calcium Hardness

A drop-based test that measures the hardness in your water. Once measured, it is used … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

dailygenesis · Jan 12, 2023

PoolStored said:
Prolly just squeezing drops too fast. Do you have a speed stir? The CH test in particular is more tricky without a speed stir. The "fading endpoint" can be tricky. It will turn, but if you let it swirl a bit it will go back. Look at this for info on the "fading endpoint." Speedstir helps avoid the fading endpoint. Let it swirl a couple seconds and it may turn back. Hope this helps...

Yeah I do have a speedstir. I notice that fading endpoint effect more on the TA test than the CH test. It's always a little tough on the CH test for me to tell if it has turned all the way. I usually put an extra drop in just to see if it turns any further and if not I don't count the last drop.

PoolStored · Jan 12, 2023

dailygenesis said:
Yeah I do have a speedstir. I notice that fading endpoint effect more on the TA test than the CH test. It's always a little tough on the CH test for me to tell if it has turned all the way. I usually put an extra drop in just to see if it turns any further and if not I don't count the last drop.

Pool management is more horseshoes and handgrenades than brain surgery. Your results are within testing error. Enjoy the pool.

Dirk · Jan 13, 2023

dailygenesis said:
I usually put an extra drop in just to see if it turns any further and if not I don't count the last drop.

That is exactly what you're supposed to do, just like that.

dailygenesis said:
Yeah I do have a speedstir.

I think you've been asked that at least twice. Check out the end of my signature. Add your test kits and the SpeedStir to yours, and us helpers will know without asking...

Dirk · Jan 13, 2023

dailygenesis said:
Oh, I also built a lighting isolation chamber in which to read my test results -- it perfectly mimics the color temperature of sunlight at all angles, but at an optimum intensity so as not to overpower... just kidding on that

dailygenesis · Jan 13, 2023

Dirk said:
I think you've been asked that at least twice. Check out the end of my signature. Add your test kits and the SpeedStir to yours, and us helpers will know without asking...

I just added to my signature. I did notice I have the Smart Stir that comes with the TF-100 PRO test kit, not the Taylor Speed Stir. They appear to be pretty similar. Not sure if that makes any difference. I assume what people want to know is do I have an automated stirring device or am I just mixing it myself.

Newdude · Jan 13, 2023

dailygenesis said:
I assume what people want to know is do I have an automated stirring device or am I just mixing it myself.

Bingo. The only difference is the dimensions of the unit. The 'pills' are different too and the smart stir uses a '+' instead of a '-', but the consistency of the mixing is the same.

Dirk · Jan 13, 2023

dailygenesis said:
I just added to my signature. I did notice I have the Smart Stir that comes with the TF-100 PRO test kit, not the Taylor Speed Stir. They appear to be pretty similar. Not sure if that makes any difference. I assume what people want to know is do I have an automated stirring device or am I just mixing it myself.

Just double-checking on your MO: when using a stirrer, you fill the test vial with the water sample to the appropriate measuring line first, then put in the pill. If you put the pill in first, you'll skew the result.

dailygenesis · Jan 13, 2023

Dirk said:
Just double-checking on your MO: when using a stirrer, you fill the test vial with the water sample to the appropriate measuring line first, then put in the pill.

Yes understood. That’s how I do it.

dailygenesis · Jan 13, 2023

Also, while we're talking about the test kits, I haven't yet figured out the purpose of the daily chlorine test (the one that's in the same gizmo as the daily pH test). From what I understand, that test simply tell you yes or no -- do you have any free chlorine or do you have zero free chlorine. There hasn't really been a day since I've had my pool that I can remember that I had zero free chlorine. Why would I need to use that test every day?

PoolStored · Jan 13, 2023

dailygenesis said:
Why would I need to use that test every day?

I never use it. Always use the FAS-DPD to maintain FC according to the chart...FC/CYA Levels

HermanTX · Jan 14, 2023

dailygenesis said:
Also, while we're talking about the test kits, I haven't yet figured out the purpose of the daily chlorine test (the one that's in the same gizmo as the daily pH test). From what I understand, that test simply tell you yes or no -- do you have any free chlorine or do you have zero free chlorine. There hasn't really been a day since I've had my pool that I can remember that I had zero free chlorine. Why would I need to use that test every day?

It is meant to be easier to do and just to determine pH and TC levels as it is only drop based. Remember this test measures Total Chlorine - TC not FC. It saves using your FAS-DPD powder & reagent if you like to test often. My issue with it is that I normally keep my FC at 5 or higher. So this daily test process always maxes out on the color comparator. Clearly, the FAS-DPD method gives you FC and CC which is preferred. I use the daily test process to test my water supply as there should be zero or very low levels of chlorine.

In reality, this test was developed for traditional pool industry recommendations of 3ppm TC. We, at TFP, know that it is best to follow the FC/CYA Levels which in most cases for outdoor pools will require FC above 5ppm.

dailygenesis · Apr 7, 2023

Dirk said:
I would wait. Temperatures are cold. You won't be needing much of any chlorine, and it won't be burning off in the winter like it would in the summer. CYA helps protect your FC level from the sun, but if the sun is low in the sky, and daylight hours are short, the level of protection needed goes down. Plus, CYA dissipates over time. You might find a much lower level of CYA in the spring, and so need much less of a water exchange.

I would encourage the no drain exchange if that can work for you. But that type of exchange uses more water, which is another reason to see how low the CYA will get on its own.

The other reason to wait: you need to know if your local municipality determines your sewer rates based on water consumption. Mine does so in the three winter months we are currently in. They figure no one waters their garden in the winter, so all the water used is inside the house, and ending up in the sewer. Now is not the time for me to add any water to the pool that I don't need to. Do you know if that's the case in your area?

And then there's the rain. If you get a lot, you can manipulate the water level in your pool to take advantage of the "free" water exchange rain can provide. I'd need to know more about your pool to advise you how that's done, but again, that could be another reason to wait on the exchange.

Your levels look good. Great job getting the kit and posting. Exactly what we like to see. Your CYA and CH are high, but not off the chart. I don't see a pressing need to exchange water next week, but several reasons not to. Your FC should be above 7 (based on your CYA). If you don't have trouble maintaining 7+, then waiting on a CYA solution is fine.

And lastly, a very obscure reason: I'll be doing a write up about my recent water exchange adventure that might have some ideas you can use. Hopefully I'll get that posted in the next few weeks.

So, here were now, having waited out the winter, and heading into the spring. I am now trying to determine if I should attempt to exchange some water, or if my levels are in a good spot to head into the summer.

My CYA is currently: 60 (down from around 90 last year when I stopped using tabs)
My CH is currently: 525

Both seems a little on the high side but within reason.

If I exchange 25% of the water, I estimate I would get CYA to 45 and CH to around 450.

But CYA will continue to naturally fall if I don't use tabs, which I don't plan to do. CH has been steady through the winter but I figure might go up a bit more as evaporation increases.

Any thoughts?

Dirk · Apr 7, 2023

CH in the 500s is manageable, but that was my personal threshold, so I brought it down last fall (not following the very advice I gave you, and then we got all that rain here and I regretted it, so good job waiting). I calculated my water exchange and came up with about 50 bucks worth of water, so cost was not an issue.

I'm at 325 now and might not have to think about CH for a few years at least. High CH also was causing my SWG to spit flakes, so that was a second good reason for me to reduce it, which isn't an issue for you.

While this is not TFP gospel, I'm of the mind to keep all my levels as close to the middle of the acceptable ranges as possible. I figure, if there is a "too low" and if there is a "too high," either of which is bad for my pool, then it stands to reason that there should be a "just right," which theoretically should be good for my pool (or at least "less bad"). Of course, that didn't work out so well for Goldilocks, so there's that!

Not really recommending anything, just relaying what I did and why.

HermanTX · Apr 7, 2023

dailygenesis said:
But CYA will continue to naturally fall if I don't use tabs, which I don't plan to do. CH has been steady through the winter but I figure might go up a bit more as evaporation increases.

CYA does somewhat reduce over time but not significantly. The best way to reduce is to drain. However, have you switched to LC since you are no longer using tabs or are you depending on the Ozone system you show in your signature? If you are switching to LC then a CYA of 50-60 is fine. If you depend on your ozone system, I feel you will have an algae issue.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

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UV Systems - Further Reading

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High CH is manageable - some members are over 600 but if you drain then you can reduce it as well as your CYA.

Targeting 40-50 CYA and a CH in 400-450 range is a good start for the summer. Best to do it now and ensure you get your FC levels correct to avoid any algae to take hold. I strongly suggest you use LC as your primary sanitizer

dailygenesis · Apr 11, 2023

HermanTX said:
However, have you switched to LC since you are no longer using tabs or are you depending on the Ozone system you show in your signature? If you are switching to LC then a CYA of 50-60 is fine. If you depend on your ozone system, I feel you will have an algae issue.

I am using LC and maintaining FC levels per TFP guidelines. I am basically acting as though the ozone system doesn't exist.

HermanTX · Apr 11, 2023

dailygenesis said:
I am using LC and maintaining FC levels per TFP guidelines. I am basically acting as though the ozone system doesn't exist.

Great. Suggest you update your signature to state using LC as that helps if you have questions in future on pool chemicals or testing.

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