Pool Closing Chemicals???

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JPMorgan

JPMorgan

Gold Supporter
May 22, 2018
685
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
60000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
The pool company we use at our HOA drains and cleans the pool each spring. I have only been here one year helping with the pool and this has been the practice for quite some time. The pool is covered during the winter months with a mesh safety cover. It is a 60,000 gallon pool. The chemicals being added to the pool at closing are 5 gallons of Winterizer (algaecide) and 4 quarts of Pool Magic "Winter". (I assume this is Pool Magic Spring and Fall since I can't find a Pool Magic "Winter" sold by Natural Chemistry.)

Given that the pool is drained and cleaned each year are both of these products necessary to add at closing? From the instructions on the Winterizer, it looks like 3 gallons would be sufficient... and the Pool Magic indicates that the dosage is 1 qt. per 25,000 gallons, so 2 or 3 quarts at the most would seem sufficient. Are we being sold chemicals we don't really need... especially since the pool is drained each spring?
 
I’d be interested to hear the reasoning behind treating the water for the winter when it’s going to be dumped anyway. It’s not necessary. In the commercial closings I’d do, we’d winterize the equipment, pump rooms, restrooms, and pool plumbing, leaving the (lowered) water in the pool. Come spring it was a full drain, pressure wash/clean of the pool, refill and balance.
 
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Yes.... exactly my thought... what's the point of putting those chemicals in the water during closing unless you're trying to salvage the water in the spring. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe it makes for a somewhat less messy pool to drain and clean in the spring. Other thoughts on this???
 
Perhaps they are trying to prevent staining/ scaling?
I don’t use any of those “magic” products- just raise to slam level with otherwise balanced water & close.
Since it is a public pool basically, I assume they close kind of early & open late (the Labor Day to Memorial Day schedule) the average temps during those times can definitely lead to a stained swamp so an algaecide (polyquat 60) can be useful as mentioned in the closing article - not sure what’s in the “winterizer” you mentioned.
www.google.com

Closing an In Ground Pool

Winterizing a pool is essential for keeping your in-ground pool protected during cold-weather months. This Pool Repair guide will show you how to do it.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Mdragger88 said:
Since it is a public pool basically, I assume they close kind of early & open late (the Labor Day to Memorial Day schedule) the average temps during those times can definitely lead to a stained swamp so an algaecide (polyquat 60) can be useful as mentioned in the closing article - not sure what’s in the “winterizer” you mentioned.
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We try to keep an eye on the 10 day weather forecast and open when warmer weather is forecast and close when it is getting cooler. Generally, I would say we are open mid-May to mid to late September. I get your point that the Winterizer may be important to add in the fall even if the pool is drained in the spring in order to keep the algae in check and avoid a super messy pool to clean up. I will check to see if that Winterizer is Polyquat 60. I think you can use that as long as FC in the pool is below 5 when closing, right?
 
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I read the article you linked and came across this....

"If you raise your water to SLAM FC level then you should let the FC drift down before adding Polyquat 60. Having a moderately higher level (½ SLAM level so the FC/CYA ratio of 20%) is okay as well."

Sounds like it is best to use this product when FC is not at SLAM levels.
 
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JPMorgan said:
I raed the article you linked and came across this....

"If you raise your water to SLAM FC level then you should let the FC drift down before adding Polyquat 60. Having a moderately higher level (½ SLAM level so the FC/CYA ratio of 20%) is okay as well."

Sounds like it is best to use this product when FC is not at SLAM levels.
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You got it.
 
Decoy205 said:
Why do they drain public pools each year?
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When you’re talking a minimum of 200,000 gallons plus in a small commercial pool, the water bill on a refill is cheaper than the chemicals it takes to try and save the water. I’ve done it both ways, and it’s been more economical to drain and refill. It’s also a rarity for pools of this size to have covers which increases the likehood of fishing animals and other debris out of the pool and much tougher to try and keep a clean pool over the winter.
 
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Lake Placid... Our HOA pool is 60,000 gallons and I've wondered why they don't save the water each year (as I did when I owned a 20,000 gallon residential pool). I've been thinking about "pushing" the HOA and the pool company to do that, so I'm very interested in what you think about that size pool. With a 60,000 gallon pool does it make sense to drain and fill each year.... or do you think that amount of water could be salvaged economically (assuming the pool is closed propoerly)? We also have a mesh cover, so that might factor into the decision, as well.

PS - I dug out an empty bottle of the polyquat algaecide that the pool company uses to close the pool. It says 10% poly on the label. I guess that explains why they are putting 5 gallons of this "Winterizer" in the pool when the appropriate dose of polyquat 60 would be about 2 quarts. They charge $28/gal for this diluted polyquat ($140 for 5 gallons); a quart of polyquat 60 runs about $28 (In The Swim price), so using the polyquat 60 would cost about $60.... more than 50% cheaper!!!
 
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Without crunching hard numbers I’d say you‘re right on the verge and may find it more economical (or a close break even) to try and save the water at that volume, especially with a cover. What’s your cost in water to fill?

When I was in Peoria from 13-19 our cost to fill was about $1,500 - $2,000 in a 275,000 Gallon pool. Chem budget for Memorial Day to Labor Day was about $7,000 average In the season. To save the water, chemicals would have easily exceeded fill costs (on top of the budgeted seasonal chems) not to mention serious labor (I didn’t have a big enough crew to do all the seasonal work on property that needed to happen in addition to pool prep) to prep a green debris filled swamp just to get it to the point we could have turned on the pumps.

Estimate your water fill cost first, plus an initial dose of chlorine to get the water sanitary. Then compare that to guesstimated chlorine costs for a SLAM for a week. Account for your time and effort hauling chlorine and dosing, unless you’ve hooked up with a bulk supplier. At 60k gallons, my gut says save the water, but do the math compared to historical fill rates.
 
Also, Some public pools must drain to manage high TDS simply because of outdated regulations that equate high TDS to unoxidized organics due to the heavy bather loads.
This may or may not be a factor for the op’s pool. There are several threads on this in the deep end. While it’s not a completely accurate measurement- local rules must still be followed.
 
Mdragger88 said:
Also, Some public pools must drain to manage high TDS simply because of outdated regulations that equate high TDS to unoxidized organics due to the heavy bather loads.
This may or may not be a factor for the op’s pool. There are several threads on this in the deep end. While it’s not a completely accurate measurement- local rules must still be followed.
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While I wouldn’t disagree, in my 12 years working in Illinois in commercial pools, I never once had the IDPH inspector measure or even ask about TDS. They’d show up in August two weeks before the close of season and look at our logs tracking FC, CC, TC, and PH. Then it was ensuring we had the required flow meters, safety equipment and calculating turnover. Once those boxes were checked they’d sign off on our permit for the season. It was actually scary how rudimentary the (lack of) understanding of proper water management and sanitation the inspector had. Based on my experience, I’d never swim in a public pool I wasn’t responsible to manage. 🤮

To color a little more detail on the costs of startup on a fresh fill in a my previous post….We had high ALK out of the tap in Peoria (Around 450 ppm). Startup on a fresh fill was roughly 100# of 73% Cal Hypo, and 75 gallons of MA to get the alkalinity correct. This equated to about $450 in chem costs to startup a fresh fill. Now if we would have tried to save a green swamp, our costs in chlorine alone could have easily run over the $1,500 fill amount as Cal hypo was about $135 per 50#. I’m sure those numbers have increased as my memory is drawing from pricing in 2018 when I was still that area.
 
Lake Placid said:
Estimate your water fill cost first, plus an initial dose of chlorine to get the water sanitary. Then compare that to guesstimated chlorine costs for a SLAM for a week. Account for your time and effort hauling chlorine and dosing, unless you’ve hooked up with a bulk supplier. At 60k gallons, my gut says save the water, but do the math compared to historical fill rates.
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I checked the water rate in our area, which is $18.59 per 1,000/gal for water (and sewer), so... $1,115 for 60,000 gallons of water. TA and pH of fill water is never too far off the target levels, so minimal cost there. Figure 8 gallons of LC (at $6.25/gal) to SLAM 60,000 gallons of fresh fill water (with CYA at 30), so that's another $50. Stabilizer (15 lbs)..... about $100.
Total cost for fresh fill = $1,265

Cost for slavaging water....let's say $265 to top off the pool (including water lost when vauuming to waste). The rest would be the cost of LC to SLAM the pool for a week. At $6.25/ gallon, I can buy 160 gallons of LC. That would be the break even point. If I use less chlorine, I'm ahead.

Does my analysis make sense? Seems like there is a pretty good chance for some savings by salvaging the water, especially if the water doesn't look to bad when opening in the spring.
In a worst case scenario, how much 12.5% LC do you think I would need to bring 60,000 gallons of pool water to "swimmable" condition? (8 gallons a day for 7 days is only 56 gallons!)
If I could complete SLAM with 60 gallons, that's a savings of over $600 (about 50%) compared to fresh fill.
 
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I don’t see any glaring omissions in your analysis. It points to trying a salvage and you’re likely money ahead, especially if you put it to bed correctly and open to decently clear water. As an aside, check with your municipality regarding fill of the pool. In the larger commercial accounts I’ve dealt with, if you track your fill water exclusively for the pool, you can often get a credit against the sewer costs. Its worth a little investigation to clarify if your municipality allows it.
 
JPMorgan said:
Cost for slavaging water....let's say $265 to top off the pool (including water lost when vauuming to waste). The rest would be the cost of LC to SLAM thepool for a week. At $6.25/ gallon, I can buy 160 gallons of LC. That would be the break even point. If I use less chlorine, I'm ahead.
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How many man-hours will that take at what loaded payroll rate? By employees or contractors?

You are assuming your time is free and you are available. If I were management I would not accept that. What if you are incapacitated? Then you leave management scrambling to find someone to properly open the pool. The few dollars you are saving may not be worth the hassles you can create.
 
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Lake Placid said:
check with your municipality regarding fill of the pool. In the larger commercial accounts I’ve dealt with, if you track your fill water exclusively for the pool, you can often get a credit against the sewer costs. Its worth a little investigation to clarify if your municipality allows it.
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I did check a couple times when I had my own pool (same Municipality) and they wouldn't give me a credit for the sewer charge. I suppose I could ask again to see if anything has changed or if it's different for an HOA. Thanks.
 
ajw22 said:
How many man-hours will that take at what loaded payroll rate? By employees or contractors?

You are assuming your time is free and you are available. If I were management I would not accept that. What if you are incapacitated? Then you leave management scrambling to find someone to properly open the pool. The few dollars you are saving may not be worth the hassles you can create.
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I get your point. The pool company's routine is to drain and fill. They charge us $1,000 for opening (not including chemicals). I doubt they would give us a discount for trying to salvage the water instead of doing the drain and clean. I'm paid $25/hour for my time, so if I spend 15-20 hours vacuuming and SLAMing the pool after the pool company opens the pool, the potential savings is pretty much lost. Will probably just stick with the routine that's been in place and not stir the pot.
 
JP, I bet they are assuming a few years will be particularly bad to try to save. It's easier to budget a set/known amount than to roll the dice and hope they break even.

One particularly bad opening will erase several years they saved a little.
 
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