Water Related, But Not The Pool....Low PH

HeyEng · Sep 6, 2022

I was hoping one of the guru's here could help a fella out. Long story short, we live in a house that is about 15 years old and on a well. The plumbing is mainly PEX, but fittings have been brass and/or other metal. We had a couple of them leak over the last couple of years because of corrosion (the white/green staining) and so we have had all of them replaced. Nonetheless, our neighbor has had an absolute nightmare with in-wall leaks with metal fittings that have corroded.

EDIT: The results from the university showed results that weren't CLOSE to the averages that were recorded and that I shared here initially, so I removed that information. 9/21/2022

ajw22 · Sep 6, 2022

@JoyfulNoise may have ideas.

JoyfulNoise · Sep 6, 2022

Your well water is very hard - it has both high mineral hardness AND it has high temporary hardness (carbonate alkalinity). The corrosion of fittings is indicative of the low pH and high EC. The high chloride and sulfate levels are also not good for anything metallic. Anything metal in contact with that water will be subject to various forms of corrosion.

Your choices are all hard and expensive. I would suggest you consider a high flow rate sediment filter (spun polypropylene), a high capacity water softener with dual elimination (both granular activated carbon AND an ion exchange resin), and then a final acidity neutralizer. This assumes that your well pump is in good condition and can provide the necessary pressure and flow rates.

Additionally I would not drink that water. I would suggest a 5-stage RO tap installed at your kitchen sink. An RO tap used mainly for drinking water and some cooking purposes will provide you with safe drinking water.

Sorry, probably not what you want to hear but wells are great to have … until they’re not. Then they are very expensive.

HeyEng · Sep 7, 2022

JoyfulNoise said:
Your well water is very hard - it has both high mineral hardness AND it has high temporary hardness (carbonate alkalinity). The corrosion of fittings is indicative of the low pH and high EC. The high chloride and sulfate levels are also not good for anything metallic. Anything metal in contact with that water will be subject to various forms of corrosion.

Your choices are all hard and expensive. I would suggest you consider a high flow rate sediment filter (spun polypropylene), a high capacity water softener with dual elimination (both granular activated carbon AND an ion exchange resin), and then a final acidity neutralizer. This assumes that your well pump is in good condition and can provide the necessary pressure and flow rates.

Additionally I would not drink that water. I would suggest a 5-stage RO tap installed at your kitchen sink. An RO tap used mainly for drinking water and some cooking purposes will provide you with safe drinking water.

Sorry, probably not what you want to hear but wells are great to have … until they’re not. Then they are very expensive.

No worries and THANK YOU for the input, it is much appreciated! I actually have taken a sample to our local extension office to get more precise results and will post 'em up when I get them (up to 14 business days). We haven't considered the water to be potable, so we keep the water delivery guy employed.

JoyfulNoise · Sep 7, 2022

HeyEng said:
No worries and THANK YOU for the input, it is much appreciated! I actually have taken a sample to our local extension office to get more precise results and will post 'em up when I get them (up to 14 business days). We haven't considered the water to be potable, so we keep the water delivery guy employed.

Oh, and you mentioned high "EC"...what is that?

EC = Electrical Conductivity

EC is related to TDS (total dissolved solids) in the sense that a dissolved ionic compound (eg, chloride, nitrate, sulfate, etc) increases the conductivity of water. It’s a quick way of gauging the “purity” of water. Generally speaking, in terms of good health, you want to drink water that is low EC as long as your dietary intake of minerals is normal and healthy. Most municipal water suppliers will have a target EC/TDS level for the water that they supply as potable. Elevated EC/TDS would indicate a problem in their processing line.

In your situation, well water is always going to have higher EC because there’s only so much processing you can do in a reasonably inexpensive manner. For showering and washing clothes, dishes, etc, demineralized water is fine but it will not likely taste good. I find my softened tap water to be very unpalatable. This is why I installed a 5-stage RO tap at our kitchen sink and it’s the only water in the house, aside from bottled water, that I like to drink.

I think the biggest downside of your situation is that any acidity neutralizer you install will probably not last as long as the manufacturers state because your water is acidic AND highly mineralized. So as soon as the water hits your acidity filter, the rise in pH is going to cause a build up of calcium and magnesium scale inside the filter. This will likely result in premature clogging of the calcite filter media. It’s unavoidable in your situation but at least the media isn’t too expensive to replace.

JamesW · Sep 7, 2022

HeyEng said:
The well water here seems to be pretty acidic (lower than 7.0 w/ my test kit, but it won't measure lower than that) and has some sediment.

Can you get a pH meter to test the water?

What readings do you get for TA, calcium hardness and salinity?

HeyEng · Sep 7, 2022

JoyfulNoise said:
I think the biggest downside of your situation is that any acidity neutralizer you install will probably not last as long as the manufacturers state because your water is acidic AND highly mineralized. So as soon as the water hits your acidity filter, the rise in pH is going to cause a build up of calcium and magnesium scale inside the filter. This will likely result in premature clogging of the calcite filter media. It’s unavoidable in your situation but at least the media isn’t too expensive to replace.

The neutralizer would probably be a pain, but much more desirable that the issues of plumbing leaks can create. Our neighbor has had 3 in-wall leaks over the last couple of months and they have been very expensive to repair. So far, our leaks/issues have only been with the toilet shut off valves and we have had every single valve we can access replaced. I am also slightly concerned in space for installing both a water softener and the neutralizer since the utility closet also has the water heater and well pressure tank in it. Here is the latest damage at our neighbor's house:

HeyEng · Sep 7, 2022

JamesW said:
Can you get a pH meter to test the water?

What readings do you get for TA, calcium hardness and salinity?

Here is what I am showing for test results:

pH (w/ meter): 5.3 at frost free (no filtering) and 5.6 at sink. Both were run for about 5 minutes before test. For reference, pool shows 7.2 (7.5 using Taylor test).
CH: 50
TA: 30
Salinity: 200 or less (only one drop for color change w/ Taylor test)

I dropped off my water sample this morning (Oklahoma State University Water/Soil Lab), so should get those results in 5-10 business days. I will be curious to see what the actual numbers are.

JamesW · Sep 7, 2022

That plumbing looks horrible.

Maybe it's just bad materials and workmanship rather than problems caused by the water.

What type of materials are used on the plumbing?

JamesW · Sep 7, 2022

If the TA is high, the pH should not be low.

Maybe if you have a lot of trapped carbon dioxide, but maybe that can be off-gassed to raise the pH without any treatment?

HeyEng · Sep 7, 2022

JamesW said:
That plumbing looks horrible.

Maybe it's just bad materials and workmanship rather than problems caused by the water.

What type of materials are used on the plumbing?

I am inclined to think it wasn't poor workmanship. This problem has plagued the neighborhood and most of the houses were custom built 10-15 years ago. The pictures you see above was from the personal home of one of the builders who has a very good reputation in town. That isn't to say that it couldn't be an issue since I would doubt he would have been there to supervise the entire building process.

Most of the houses in the hood use PEX and related PEX connectors and common metal shut off valves. The below picture valve we had replaced and is pretty representative of the corrosion we saw on the other brass/metal fittings. The subsequent pics are the replaced valves.

HeyEng · Sep 21, 2022

Well, so much for low Ph being the cause of this. I got the lab report back from the local university lab and all looks pretty normal. Any thoughts on this? I hate the idea of spending $1000+ on an acid reducer when it isn't necessary. Perhaps the Ph increased during handling? Using the Taylor test (actually two seperate kits) are showing in the mid 6.0 range.

Toxophilite · Sep 21, 2022

The chemistry issue is there with well water. Live that myself. Having witnessed the issue with premature failure of brass fittings (mainly spigots), and the wall leaks that can come from that in a house next door to my build, a little research also came back that not all brass sold out there is up to par. There's a lot sub-par alloy brass sold and used that fails rather quickly. I lived in my prior house over 30 years on well water, actually, my entire life around well water, and such corrosion in and around brass has never been issue before. Now PEX and brass is common over PVC and copper, and the issue is more common. The common denominator to this seems to be brass.

HeyEng · Sep 21, 2022

Toxophilite said:
The chemistry issue is there with well water. Live that myself. Having witnessed the issue with premature failure of brass fittings (mainly spigots), and the wall leaks that can come from that in a house next door to my build, a little research also came back that not all brass sold out there is up to par. There's a lot sub-par alloy brass sold and used that fails rather quickly. I lived in my prior house over 30 years on well water, actually, my entire life around well water, and such corrosion in and around brass has never been issue before. Now PEX and brass is common over PVC and copper, and the issue is more common. The common denominator to this seems to be brass.

I could see low quality brass being a culprit. Most of the neighbors are having similar issues and I would guess that their well tests would show similar numbers. All the houses here are about 15 years old, so perhaps it's just been a slow to develop problem.

JoyfulNoise · Sep 21, 2022

The pH increased during transport. When water is pressurized in the pipes, there’s no way for the carbon dioxide to escape and raise pH. So if the well water is coming up at a pH of 5 then it’s sitting in the pipes at that pH. While that doesn’t necessarily cause corrosion on its own, it basically makes the process of corrosion very likely to happen.

The plumbing job is horrible. I own a home that was built during the housing bubble, about the same age as yours, and the plumbing is also horrible. I hate PEX with a vengeance but understand why plumbers use it. It’s cheap and easy and rarely develops leaks if you install it correctly. But it looks horrible. Copper piping is, my opinion, the gold standard but it’s also ridiculously expensive and most modern plumbers don’t want to be bothered carrying around a torch on their trucks or doing the extra work required to sweat a good joint. PVC, when installed properly, will last forever but lots of glue joints equals lots of chances for leaks. And it seems like you can’t pay apprentices enough money to pay attention when gluing a PVC joint. So PEX wins and we should all just be thankful it’s buried behind drywall so we don’t have to look at it.

JoyfulNoise · Sep 21, 2022

As for your well problem …. You might consider a well water storage tank. By bringing up the water slowly and letting it sit in a tank, it can naturally offgas and the pH can balance out prior to pressurizing your plumbing with it. May not be viable if you don’t have space for it. But then you’d also need a pressurizing pump with a pressure switch to keep the house plumbing pressurized when there’s a call for water.

Toxophilite · Sep 21, 2022

HeyEng said:
I could see low quality brass being a culprit. Most of the neighbors are having similar issues and I would guess that their well tests would show similar numbers. All the houses here are about 15 years old, so perhaps it's just been a slow to develop problem.

I had sold my house of 30plus years, moved into house next to my build which was 10 years old. I had one spigot which nipple had corroded completely through and leaked into the room. Caught it before any damage. The landlord told me that was the last one to be replaced. She had same issue on all the others. That started my quest since didn't seem right. My plumber contractor and I had a good talk. He explained it more from the quality of cheaper bulk brass these day. The good stuff has to be sourced and pay more for.

Toxophilite · Sep 21, 2022

JoyfulNoise said:
And it seems like you can’t pay apprentices enough money to pay attention when gluing a PVC joint.

Next door to me, my neighbor built a huge home and had main manifold to house supply in back corner outside utility. The end of day before move in day, a plumber's helper screwed a brass fitting into a PVC pipe to finalize water main turn on. When my neighbor arrived in the morning of next day, move in, water was running out of the front door and from down the slab along brick weeps. The entire house was full!!!! That PVC split wide open during the night under pressure with pump running all night.

HeyEng · Sep 21, 2022

JoyfulNoise said:
As for your well problem …. You might consider a well water storage tank. By bringing up the water slowly and letting it sit in a tank, it can naturally offgas and the pH can balance out prior to pressurizing your plumbing with it. May not be viable if you don’t have space for it. But then you’d also need a pressurizing pump with a pressure switch to keep the house plumbing pressurized when there’s a call for water.

Yep, already have a 20 gallon tank and pressure controller. I am also not a huge fan of PEX but we have had pin hole issues with copper too (in a former home built in the late 70s) which has been alleged to be the result of poor municipal water. MANY of the homes in that area (NW Atlanta area) have had similar issues but I don't know that a culprit was ever found.

HeyEng · Sep 21, 2022

Toxophilite said:
Next door to me, my neighbor built a huge home and had main manifold to house supply in back corner outside utility. The end of day before move in day, a plumber's helper screwed a brass fitting into a PVC pipe to finalize water main turn on. When my neighbor arrived in the morning of next day, move in, water was running out of the front door and from down the slab along brick weeps. The entire house was full!!!! That PVC split wide open during the night under pressure with pump running all night.

Oof...that's a depressing thought. We have water alarms all over the freaking house and shut off the water whenever we are going to be gone for any decent length of time. It's somewhat a pain (turn off the ice makers, unplug the water recirc pump, turn off water heater) but better than coming home to significant damage thanks to a massive water leak.

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