VS Pump speed

[DeanP66]

That might be fine then. They key is to get lots of agitation of the water and lots of bubbles, which creates the outgassing of CO2 (I think) and pushes just the pH up.

With a SWG, you shouldn't have to use that pH+ ever again. The pH will climb on its own over time because you aren't feeding it acidic pucks or granular chlorine. Stick with just aeration so you don't raise your TA along with the pH.

Could you give us a brand new set of current numbers just so we can see where you currently sit. This thread has been going on for quite a while so most of them may not be very valid or accurate anymore.

As far as the SWG, I'd try to keep the FC at 7ppm so you have a little cushion in case of a power outage or who knows what. It will give you a little more time to fix any issue without the pool beginning to get cloudy. Better a couple ppm too high than too low. It really doesn't cost you anything with a SWG like it would with the extra liquid chlorine so really no downside.

 

[needsajet]

I like the idea of having a submersible pump too. They're fairly inexpensive, perhaps around $40 or $50. They suck from the bottom and have an outlet with adapters near the bottom that you can attach a hose to, and which swivels. Handy to own if you ever want to drain the pool below the skimmer, or to mix water if your pump is being serviced. You can just set it on your top step as mentioned, with no hose attached, and the swiveling outlet pointed up at an angle, and it will shoot a nice fountain up out of the water in any direction you like. Take it out if anyone's swimming.

Server Busy

Re: TA... your fill water is high, and your level makes sense. Correcting pH down to 7.8 each time it goes higher than that is fine. At high TA, you'll need to do this X often, let's say it turns out to be twice a week. If that's too often for you, then you can lower TA, and your pH will rise slower. The same total amount of acid will be required either way, because that acid is offsetting the alkalinity arriving in your fill water. So reducing TA is all about changing the frequency of acid additions, but not the total amount of acid.

 

[KevinBond]

Could you give us a brand new set of current numbers just so we can see where you currently sit.

Here are my current numbers:
FC: 5.5
CC: 0.5
pH: ~7.5
TA: 150
CH: 475
SALT: 4000
CYA: ~40

You can just set it on your top step as mentioned, with no hose attached, and the swiveling outlet pointed up at an angle, and it will shoot a nice fountain up out of the water in any direction you like.

Awesome, I'll pick one up and give it a try! As you say, they are fairly cheap.

 

[KevinBond]

For the submersible pump, do you think this one would work (1/4 HP)? Looks like the nozzle just points straight up. I guess I could angle the entire unit or pickup a 45° elbow?

 

[Newdude]

Yup that’s it. I got a 1/3 HP one for a hair more oomph. The outlet should be a standard 3/4 fitting for a garden hose. Either buy an elbow adapter or donate a few feet of that garden hose you were meaning to replace anyway. C’mon now, we ALL have one. Or 4.

 

[DeanP66]

That's the one I have as well, but I also got the 1/3 hp version. You can use it with a garden hose, but it's better to unscrew that adapter and make yourself a fitting from 1.25" pvc and add some type of nipple. Then you can attach it to either a vacuum hose, or even those flimsy backwash hoses that are pretty cheap. You'll get much stronger flow that way, which means more bubbles created.

Good numbers above, but I didn't see a CYA number? That one would be good to know as well so we know if you are using a lot of chlorine daily or not.

Definitely work on getting that TA down lower because your CSI currently (assuming your CYA is 70, and your water temp ~77) is a little on the positive side (0.12). You definitely want to be in the negative near -0.3 or so to avoid scaling on the SWG plates. If you can get that TA number down to 70 with all your other numbers remaining unchanged, you would be right at -0.30. Shoot for that.

Your numbers are very similar to mine. My CH is identical to yours and my fill water has even higher TA at 330ppm, so just be aware, that to keep that TA down under 100, it might take aerating the water a couple times a season. That's where the submersible pump will pay for itself nicely, plus it's always nice to have something that can move your water around in case your VSP needs repair and will be out of commission for any period of time.

 

[Newdude]

You can use it with a garden hose, but it's better to unscrew that adapter and make yourself a fitting from 1.25" pvc and add some type of nipple

+1. Want more flow and the splashing bubbles that ensue ? You’d have to figure out which size that specific pump has for the adapter but check this out. Submersible pump hack.

 

[KevinBond]

Good numbers above, but I didn't see a CYA number? That one would be good to know as well so we know if you are using a lot of chlorine daily or not.

Oops, CYA is ~40 (I'm in the process of raising it).

 

[KevinBond]

So for lowering my TA: should I be letting my pH (naturally/via aeration) rise to ~7.8, then lower with acid to ~7.0, and repeat until the TA is ~80?

With acid, I found I can lower the pH pretty quickly, in a day or so. What about raising it via aeration? I know there are a lot of factors/variables but what kind of timeline should I be looking at for going from 7.0 - 7.8? Aerating with my stair jets seems to be going pretty slow.

 

[mknauss]

When you add acid the pH and TA drop immediately.

The aeration will take what time it takes to raise pH. You can force it, or just let it happen. When you get into swim season, and the pool is used, you will find the pH rises quicker. A handful of kids in a pool is a very efficient form of aeration.

 

[DeanP66]

With my pool, I have found that if I let pH climb on its own without aeration, the TA tends to climb a little as well, so when I'm trying to lower TA, I stick with aeration 24/7 until I get TA to where I want it and also let the pH rise back up to my normal level one last time.

When aerating, my pH seems to only go up to 7.4 - 7.5ish and that's about it, so that's when I add the acid to lower both pH and TA again.

Aerating with the jets just doesn't give you the agitation you would get with a sub pump. That's why I recommended it with some kind of contraption like mine. You will get higher pressure hitting the water and thus creating more bubbles with it, but it will still take time. Bank on at least 6 to 8 hours to raise your pH from 7.0 to 7.4ish.

 

[KevinBond]

When aerating, my pH seems to only go up to 7.4 - 7.5ish and that's about it, so that's when I add the acid to lower both pH and TA again.

Interesting, when creating a whirlpool with my stair jets for several hours over 2 days, I found the pH rose from 7.2 to 7.5 pretty quick but has now stopped rising. I'll try lowering it down to 7.0 and see if I experience the same thing. We have been swimming quite a bit so I guess that's helping aerate as well.

Bank on at least 6 to 8 hours to raise your pH from 7.0 to 7.4ish.

Great, that's what I was looking for as a rough timeline.

 

[KevinBond]

Update on my pump speed situation: Since completing the SLAM and back-washing a few days ago, the RPM has remained pretty constant for the GPM I want. It isn't rapidly increasing like I saw pre-SLAM.

I run at 30GPM during the day and it sits around 2300RPM. At night, I drop to 20GPM and it sits around 1850RPM.

I'm definitely happy it's at least stabilized but still feel it's running high RPM for GPM based on what others have shown in this thread. @DeanP66 gets 20GPM with 1000 RPM, @csconner gets 30GPM with 1600RPM. I know others have said "every pool is different" but I can't help but feel something is still wrong or mis-configured. Is that still the general consensus here? Attached is the pump page from my intellicenter app. Not seeing anything that could be configured here. Could it be something that needs to be hard-configured?

 

[mknauss]

Run the pump at the rpm needed to achieve your desired result. The GPM value is meaningless.

 

[DeanP66]

I agree with Marty, as long as the flow switch closes on your SWG and your heater is happy as well when you use it, that is what is important.

Where are you getting that GPM data? Is it from the Intellicenter or from an actual flow meter like the Flo vis? I have a Flo vis installed on my equipment. It's basically a check valve with a meter on it.



Who knows how accurate the Intellicenter data is? I have no experience with that. Maybe someone else can chime in to get us more answers.

 

[mas985]

I run at 30GPM during the day and it sits around 2300RPM. At night, I drop to 20GPM and it sits around 1850RPM.

That indicates an excessive amount of head loss in the plumbing. In fact, the implied plumbing curve for your plumbing has over 5x the head loss of a typical pool with 2" plumbing. IMHO, something is seriously wrong with the plumbing.

Modeling your plumbing setup with the equipment listed, you should be getting over twice that flow rate at 2300 RPM. Or another way to look at it is that the pump speed should be about 1100 RPM for 30 GPM.

What is the filter pressure at 3450 RPM?

What size eyeballs are used in the pool and how many are there?

The picture shows three return pipes. You mentioned 2 were returns, what is the third?

 

[KevinBond]

Where are you getting that GPM data? Is it from the Intellicenter or from an actual flow meter like the Flo vis?

Intellicenter.

That indicates an excessive amount of head loss in the plumbing. In fact, the implied plumbing curve for your plumbing has over 5x the head loss of a typical pool with 2" plumbing. IMHO, something is seriously wrong with the plumbing.

Ugh... I'm guessing not much can be done about this now? What could the problem be? Too many twists and turns in the underground pipes?

What is the filter pressure at 3450 RPM?

I'll get back to you with this value.

What size eyeballs are used in the pool and how many are there?

These are the return "caps"? There are 6. What do I measure on them to get the size?

The picture shows three return pipes. You mentioned 2 were returns, what is the third?

Pipe 1: 2 pool returns, Pipe 2: 2 shallow end stair returns, Pipe 3: 2 deep end stair returns. I will update my signature - should I say 6 returns or 3?

Are you sure the plumbing is 2"? What is the outer diameter of the pipe?

The package from my PB specifically says 2" plumbing but I didn't pay close attention to them laying the underground pipes. The pipes at the equipment (pic attached) are definitely 2" - I assumed the underground pipes were the same.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me troubleshoot this!

 

[mas985]

I don't believe the underground pluming is the issue. You have three separate suction lines and 3 separate return lines with 2 eyeballs each so both the return side and suction side plumbing should have very little head loss. BTW, there is an opening in each eyeball where the water flows out of. What is that diameter?

My first suspect when discovering high head loss is check valves. There is one after the heater so that would be my first concern. Also heaters and multiport valves can both have excess head loss if something is not working properly.

If you are interested in narrowing this down, you could use that blue backwash hose to eliminate sections of the plumbing system to isolate where the problem may be. With the unions, it makes it fairly easy to do.

 

[JamesW]

Check the cell to make sure that it is clean.

Can you put the system in "Service Mode" and then go to the pump control panel and find the flow at the following speeds?

Don't go to full speed if you think that it will create too much pressure for your system.

From the keypad, you can get the total system psi and gpm as shown in the below video.

Run the pump at the following speeds and record the following information.

RPM........Filter PSI....Pump PSI.....Pump GPM

1,500......_________...._________.......__________

1,725......_________...._________.......__________

1,925......_________...._________.......__________

2,350......_________...._________.......__________

2,730......_________...._________.......__________

3,110......_________...._________.......__________

3,450......_________...._________.......__________

Once you get the information, you can plot the gpm on the pump performance curves to get the system curve.

 

[KevinBond]

I don't believe the underground pluming is the issue.

Boy, you have no idea what a relief that is to hear!

BTW, there is an opening in each eyeball where the water flows out of. What is that diameter?

I'll get back to you with this. Forgive the newbie question but I can just unscrew these to take them off? Will be easier for me to measure that way.

There is one after the heater so that would be my first concern.

What are the "check valves"? The part of the pipe that can be unscrewed just before my SWG?

Also heaters and multiport valves can both have excess head loss if something is not working properly.

This would be something inside the heater itself that is restricting flow? What are "multiport valves?

If you are interested in narrowing this down, you could use that blue backwash hose to eliminate sections of the plumbing system to isolate where the problem may be. With the unions, it makes it fairly easy to do.

Do you mean setting the filter to waste and running the pump to see what my flow rate is? This would eliminate everything after the filter from the equation, right? Or do you mean something else?