Iron

[Take2]

Hi. This is my first post after following TFP and TFP methods for about 6 years. Always reading and rereading applicable posts. This is very long but trying to get it all out there.
Last year we replaced the vinyl liner. I do not cover pool in winter. I cover it with a leaf net and let the chemicals go. I keep the pump and filter connected and run only when temperatures drop below freezing as I am close to uptown Charlotte, urban, and temps are somewhat mild. We do have trees.
This year I jumped on SLAMMING the pool at the first warm days/start of Covid on March 11th as I knew we would be home and did not want to stare a swap. The SLAM took forever and then I did the Vitamin C test and realized it was iron causing the light green.

March 11, 2020, First test upon opening, light to med green, uncovered over winter
FC Didn't test
CC Didn't test
PH 8.2
TA 60
CH 40
CYA 30

April 19-April 23 Adjusted FC, PH, TA and all chemicals with, Borax, baking soda, muriatic acid and liquid bleach or liquid chlorine, goofed and added too much borax...
April 21
FC 3.0
CC 0
PH 7.5
TA 80
CH 40
CYA 40

April 24- Finally my FC dropped to 1 and all tests balanced and I added Natural Chemistry Stain Free Citric Acid, half the bottle.
April 21
FC 1.0
CC 0
PH 7.2
TA 80
CH Didn't test again, because it's a vinyl liner and TFP has said I don't need to worry about this number being very low. I don't mind balancing this if it effects other numbers!!! ___________
CYA 40

April 25-added another half bottle of Stain Free and polyfil to basket
April 26- FC 0.0
PH 6.7/6.8, added washing soda, vaccuumed and brushed, all iron off walls, working on raising FC to 1
TA 60
April 27- FC 1
PH 6.8 (afterwards added 6 oz. washing soda to increase to 7.1)
TA 80
April28- May 4 Everything good, test results were where they needed to be or heading that way, balanced accordingly

April 30 (approx) 3" rainstorm in and hour , vaccuumed, backwashed
FC 2.0
CC 0.0
PH 7.2

May 4 FC 1.0
PH 7.6-7.8 (high) added 5 ounces Jasco Green Muriatic acid to lower
TA 100
May 5 FC 3.0
PH 7.5
TA 100 highest its been!
added 4 ounce Natural Chemistry Metal Free
May 6 aqua green cast, rained another 1" over an hour
FC 3.0
PH 8.2 (very high!!!) Why?_________ added 5 ounces Jasco Green Muriatic acid to lower
May 7 greener, ughh!
May 8 FC 0
PH 7.6 added 8 ounces Jasco Green Muriatic acid to lower
30 minutes later
FC 1.0 added 12 ounce CL
PH 7.5/7.6
60 minutes later PH 7.5 added 10 ounces Jasco Green Muriatic acid to lower

I did NOT add any Polyquat 60!
May 9- light rain, aqua green, iron suspended in water, again!?! water crystal clear in glass
11:00 FC 0.0
PH 7.3/7.4 too high for iron, needs to be 7.2 or lower! added 15 ounces Muriatic Acid, 24 ounces CL
TA 80
12:00 FC 1-2.0
PH 7.2
2:00 FC .5 added 20 ounces CL
PH7.2
5:00 FC .5ish added 12 ounces CL
PH7.2

May 10- still green
11:00 FC 0, added 12 ounces CL
PH 7.2
1:00 added 12 ounces CL, backwashed, MAY have gotten lighter green, most likly wishful thinking
8:00 PH 7.2/7.3; added 15 ounces CL
Mother's Day, Read and Read TFP!

May 11(Monday) Today's full test:
Darker green (see picture-entire pool is same color green, black is reflection of trees)
Vitamin test on wall did nothing
Polyfill and filter soc greenish yellow. (see picture)
FC .5 OCLT complete
CC 0
PH 7.5 Why creeping up? Metal Free? last night 7.2/7.3
TA 80/90
CYA 28/30

Weather has been cool, spring like for the last 8 weeks, cold this past week, 40's/60's and luckily have not had an algae bloom. The weather is going to change quick. This week 60, 70s then 80's in seven days.
What is my next step?
Polyquat 60? What specific brand/name? If we go that route.
Keep going with polyfil?
SLAM? complications as a result?
Drain pool half way? We have city water.

Oh!!! the BIG thing I majorly goofed on is the filter has NEVER been DEEP Cleaned!!!! 9+ years! We completely overloooked this and I've been wanting to do was waiting till things were balanced so if we were down for a few days we wouldn't be back at square one! (I have always had sediment on the floor constantly in the wrinkles. I'm thinking this is the cause) Very anxious to do this when things settle down! I have to do when my husband is available so we can fix anything that arises. Hes very able.
Also note we need to replace the rusted out gauge on the filter. I always back washed/rinsed regularly or when I saw the jet pressure was low. We have one just been waiting to add to his honey do list as I handle the pool 100%.
A bottle of the bleach i used was Clorox brand, high concentrate and one bottle splash free (grabbed by mistake) as supplies were low. Currently have 10 gallons of pool essentials Liquid Chlorine.
Currently on hand have a full bottle of Metal free I was going to add weekly as directions say. Added the first 4 ounce maintenance dose. Is that where my problem started? Do I need to add more Metal Free? Next weekly dose should be tomorrow, but I don't want to if we go another route.

Again, What is my next step?
Get Iron out off solution if it is in solution and into polyfil? With Slamming and polyfil? Will that work??? Will PH go out of whack and cause bigger problem?
I am going round and round!! What is the best next step for my specifics?

CH I don't test often or adjust, because it's a vinyl liner and TFP has said I don't need to worry about this number being very low. I don't mind balancing this if it effects other numbers/processes!!! ___________

Okay! I'm going to work for a few hours.
MANY Thanks in advance to the replies sending me in the right direction.
Take2 in Charlotte, NC

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Based on the photos you posted, my number one concern would be for algae. A successful SLAM Process must always be performed before attempting to treat for iron. Your FC has been low for so long immediately from opening that I don't think you ever really removed the algae from winter. So a SLAM Process would be step one. Actually, yes- deep clean the sand. That should be step one, then do the SLAM.

Once you complete the SLAM, then treat for any remaining iron is present. If there is iron in the water, that's the time to use the polyfill to try and capture it. Don't use any Metal Free or Poly during the SLAM, only regular bleach. While many rural areas of NC have iron, I didn't think Charlotte had that much in their city supply, but I could be wrong. So fro now, keep it simple. Deep clean the sand then do the SLAM until all 3 criteria a completed. Make sure to follow that SLAM Process page carefully. Once that's done, let us know.

 

[Take2]

Thank you!
I failed to clearly mention that I SLAMMED the pool in March. It was clear (see photo attached April 12th picture, walls stained) I kept the FC level at SLAM level for a very long time trying to get rid of green. Kind of thinking pollen was constant, roughly from March 12-April 12. That's when I did a lot of TFP research and came up with testing for Iron with Vitamin C and found out it was Iron on the walls when Vit C tablet area immediately turned the wall to blue where tablet was. It took until April 24 to drop the FC to 1.0 and to get other tests in range for the Citric Acid Treatment per Stain Free directions. The FC dropped so slowly. Since the treatment on April 24 I was trying to keep the PH under control (low) while I slowly brought FC back up. The treatment said not to raise the FC to fast and keep at the minimum range for FC/CYA. I thought around May 4/6th the FC at 3.0 and high PH at 7.5, then 8.2 caused the iron to show itself again. But I can see having FC so low could have caused a bloom. Please advise again with additional information.

 

[Texas Splash]

I see, thanks for the additional info. At this point, it really boils down to confirming if the cloudiness is algae, iron, or both. I'm on the fence but still leaning more towards algae and because after the March opening ,the FC was low for a long time. Without a doubt the pH needs to be lowered and kept low with iron water. In addition, the FC needs to be increased (as you noted - slowly) to a reasonable level based on your CYA. I just hope it's not too late. To determine if you have an algae bloom from all of this (late Mar thru Apr and to May), you'll have to validate in the classic ways we check for algae such as visible algae, cloudy water, elevated CC level, excessive FC consumption, filter pressure increasing quickly, and of course failing an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test. At this point I would recommend increasing the FC to about 5 ppm and performing an OCLT. Don't try to do an OCLT if the FC is below 3 ppm.

I also noticed you used Clorox bleach. I would avoid that if possible. Clorox brand bleach has added fabric polymers that complicates water chemistry and can make the water look odd/dull. Try Walmart's Pool Essentials or the HDX liquid chlorine at Home Depot (3-pack box).

 

[Take2]

I raised the FC to 5.0
I had my husband change the pressure gauge on the filter, it’s running at 8 P.S.I

3:00 FC 5.0 CC 0 pH 7.5
added 9 ounce green Jasco

5:00 FC 3.0 PH 7.5
added 7 ounces Jasco green

7:30 FC 5.0 CC .5 (for the first time in a while) pH 7.3 TA 90

Should I go ahead and start slam tonight? or should I deep clean filter first? (I can do tomorrow)
I also had a 3” trichlor puck in the filter basket to help keep PH lower since it kept rising. Is the pH good at 7.3 even though it just got there for the slam?

Again, thank you in advance for your guidance.

 

[Texas Splash]

I think you should do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test this evening. Besides the cloudy water, which is easy to assume is related to algae, let's see what kind of FC loss you experience overnight. I would take the tablet out of the skimmer basket and use a floater. I understand why you are using it, but that close to water suction and the pump isn't good for the equipment pad. Maybe go ahead and do the sand deep clean as well tomorrow. Start there and we will have more info to go on. Based on everything you've been through and the effort to avoid staining the past 2.5 months, I would like to make sure before increasing FC for a SLAM. Have a nice evening.

 

[Take2]

Texas Splash,
Thank you.
I did the OCLT last night.
Started and ended with the same numbers:
FC 6
CC .5 (may have been a tad less in the morning: the pink was a slightly lighter)
PH 7.2
TA 90
Green, when I brush I don't see any cloud
Green water itself is not cloudy, its like a clear green
Skimmer basket sock has some greenish yellow residue
Vitamin C test didn't do anything
Outside temp 42 this morning

As anxious as I am to do the DEEP Clean of filter, my husband isn't fully available today- Thursday should we need minor/major repairs to filter. I could do though if you think we can get it back together by end of day today.

What should my next step be?
Carol

 

[Texas Splash]

Wow. Well, there is no doubt after seeing this pic you have metals in the water. Huge difference from the other pics. You also seemed to rule-out algae by passing the OCLT and noting the water is clear with nothing brushing-up from below. I'm just not sure now if it's iron or copper related. I assume it's iron, but would be good to know which metal and what the source was so you could try to prevent it in the future. Here are some questions I had, so maybe you can help:
1 - You mentioned that early this season the Vitamin C tablets had an immediate effect on a stain, but yesterday didn't do anything. On this more recent test, was the test on a stain as well?
2 - The first pics you posted during or right after the SLAM showed clear/blue water. Your FC was much higher and had to be at least 12-16. But now with an FC of only 5-6 and pH of only 7.2, the water is obviously bright green and reacting more drastically. Was anything else added to the water other than the Stain Free, acid, and chlorine? I know you mentioned you had Polyquat 60, so it's safe to assume no other copper-based products were ever used correct?
3 - Can you think of how iron would get into the water supply? Do you fill the pool from a well?

 

[Take2]

1. Walls were stained when I did first Iron Vitamin C test in April. Today's test walls are not stained. Just a cast of light green from water. Tried Vit C to see if it was the beginning of stain. No, it was not tested on a stain, because there were none.

Question 2 /3.
Addedd 1 bottle of Clorox concentrate at some point and 1 bottle of splashfree

When I ran out of real Muriatic Acid i may have goofed when I somewhat blindly added (very old, found in my contractor hubby’s garage, never used before) Zep Driveway and Cleaner (See 3 photos). Very liitle was added with no results in lowering PH. It was added approx April 22 & 23. Probably6-12 ounces. I know better but did it anyway as I did not want to go to Lowe’s for one item during Covid. Even though two blocks away. Purchased Jasco Green April 24 along with A&H washing soda (out borax at 2 stores, have it now)

I have NEVER added Polyquat 60!

Also on April 10 an Elm tree fell and a crane removed it over our pool on April 11. We were out when they were set up and “left no “visible” trace” when they left. Only a small pile of sawdust. But I know they used saws and the huge crane that lifted it directly OVER our pool. Food for thought...

Also just thought of it the tree tookdown a string of 100 or so Edison light bulbs . A bunch broke. Yesterday we took out the good bulbs and removed the broken bases from the copper? Bases. Some were rusted but that may have happened since they have been laying 15 feet from pool on deck since the tree fell 30 days ago.

My documentation at that time (early/mid April) is sketchy because pool was clear.
But for some reason (walls stained) I took the photo of crystal blue water/walls stained on April 12 at 5:00pm (day After tree was removed)
.
Also rusty gauge. See photo.

Also rusty clamp before return jet. return jet replaced May 2019.

 

[Texas Splash]

I looked up the Zep MSDS, and while those ingredients don't need to be in the water, none of them stand-out to me as causing the green. The copper from bulb bases ... ummm....... no way to know. Copper is never good in pool water. The Clorox concentrate and splashless bleaches are no good that's for sure. Not so much for the green color, but they are horrible for pool water (dull & foaming). In the future, you'll want to use a different brand pool chlorine or regular bleach (never scented or splashless). I would recommend Walmart's Pool Essentials (or Great Value laundry bleach) or Home Depot's HDX pool chlorine (in a 3-pack). You can store the Poly 60 and use it at closing next winter.

I have to say, at this point I hate to see you invest too much more time and money trying to battle that intense green color. Somehow, someway, metals got in there, and it's enough to really cause a mess. Makes no sense based on the pictures from April that were nothing like this. Based on the size of your pool, I would be inclined to do a healthy water exchange to get rid of most the metals so you can get back on track. That's the easiest way to get control of the water. That is assuming the new water is fresh and iron/copper-free. B y the way, I don't think you ever confirmed, or maybe I missed it.......... do you fill from a well?

 

[Take2]

On Charlotte City Water.
Should I DEEP clean filter before, after or during drain/refill? Does it matter?
Oh and by the way today they are reroofing the house due to tree fall!
Many Thanks!

 

[markayash]

On Charlotte City Water.
Should I DEEP clean filter before, after or during drain/refill? Does it matter?
Oh and by the way today they are reroofing the house due to tree fall!
Many Thanks!

I agree with Pat drain and refill if it's safe..I would do a deep clean after with clean pool water.

 

[Take2]

Thanks!
I am getting ready to drain and refill. Thoughts I've pondered all day and just noticed...
I do have another Clorox product I bought 3 years ago and used when on vacation. Clorox Pool and Spa Active 99 (see picture). It does not have blue on the name as I have always stayed away from them. I used one for a short amount of time this year. And I used maybe a dozen last year.
Also I plant/garden and sometimes clean my nails off at the jet after I take my gloves off.
Because I'm addicted I did another test:
FC 4.0
CC 0
PH 7.4 (climbing?)
skimmer basket has greenish gunk in it.

 

[Take2]

oops! photo attached

 

[Texas Splash]

According to the SDS, it's a standard chlorine tablet (trichlor). No indication of copper. But with new water, I'd start fresh and not take any chances so you can be absolutely sure what is going in the water so that "IF" you see a change, you know exactly what it's from. Once you change the water, you'll need some granular stabilizer quickly since there's not enough time to wait for tablets to dissolve. Use the sock-soaking method to increase the CYA to at least 30, maybe even 40 as temps gets hotter. Then continue to balance the FC according to the FC/CYA Levels. Of course keep the pH under 7.5 for now as well while you watch the water. If the water changes after all of this, the city or supply location of your water obviously has an elevated iron content. By the way, I wouldn't rinse my hands at the pool jets anymore.

 

[Take2]

I drained to 1-2" is that enough?

 

[Take2]

So, The pool just finished filling at Noon and it is circulationg. It's clear with a very tiny bit of green algae and fine debris on bottom.
FC 1.0
CC 0
PH 8.2
TA 30
CYA 0 (I put 12 ounces in sock to start, on way to Lowes to pick up more CYA)
CH 50
Iron __? (on way to Leslie's for Iron test, it's close to Lowe's)
Copper __? (on way to Leslie's for Iron test)

I can't seem to find the forum for what order to balance/add chemicals. Please direct or advise.
Also, my iphone Poolmath App did not auto renew on May 8th, I sent a note to "Contact Us". Hopefully it will be up by the time I get back so I don't have to go old school.

photos

 

[Texas Splash]

Because of the iron/staining scare, I'd lower the pH right away - down to about 7.4-7.5 for now. Take no chances with that. That will probably knock your already-low TA down a bit, so also add some baking soda. Try to keep the TA no lower than 50. Once you add those two products, re-test in about an hour if you can and adjust more if needed. Once the stabilizer is all dissolved, try to slowly increase the FC to about 2 ppm, then perhaps 3 ppm later this evening or tomorrow. At the same time keeping a close eye on the water and liner. We'll watch for those metal test results.

@Leebo, can you confirm about the OP's Poolmath auto-renewal please?

 

[Take2]

Without Poolmath, how much Jasco Green should I add?

 

[Texas Splash]

Without Poolmath, how much Jasco Green should I add?

If it's 31.5% strength, about 3 ounces should do it. Baking soda about 2.5 lbs to go from 30 to 50.

I used the old Poolmath Web-page (link is at the bottom of this page). And here: PoolMath