Questions on SWG and pump

[JRC1954]

OK. I believe I'm ready, after many years, to upgrade to a SWG. I'm looking at the Circupool RJ45 ($1 upgrade from RJ30). My current pump is a 1HP Hayward that I run about 10 hours per day off a timer in the basement on a 230 circuit. My pump and filter are located away from the house some 45 or 50 feet. The attached pics will provide more info.
The Hayward pump has always been very noisy for my liking. I really like the idea of a VS pump. I am wondering about the wiring of the resulting system, however. It seems to me that the single feed to the current pump could be split to accommodate a SWG as they are all initially set to 230 operation and would serve as the timer for both the pump and SWG. In this case, I'd have to balance the time the circuit is hot to the SWG output and the requirements for filtration.
How would I control the two devices seperately with a VS pump? Is there a timer build into the pump itself? The wiring is underground (and under concrete) do I think I'll have to try to work with what I have there if it is of sufficient capacity to run both.
Unfortunately, I am probably looking at a liner this year as well, although I probably would be fine for a year or two (fading from over shocking, etc). I'd obviously be getting fresh water in this instance.
With all the COVID-19 issues, the governor has shut things down here in PA for non-life sustaining businesses. Not sure if I can get anyone out to look at the liner anyway.
So.... I'm sitting here with all this time on my hands remaining socially distant, and running this over and over in my mind.

Any helpful suggestions/comments/advice would be very much welcome.

Jeff

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jeff,

The first thing you need to do to select a SWCG is know the volume of your pool.. A SWCG needs to be at least 2 x the volume of the pool.. An RJ-45, may be too small for your pool, which I "guess" to be about 30K gallons..

Cells are rated when running at 100% output and 24/7... You do not want to do that if you can help it.

All salt saltwater pools need to be wired so that the salt system never gets power when the pump is off.. This is simple with a single speed pump.. Just wire the power to the pump and the salt system to the same timer.

It is not so easy with a VS pump as they normally get constant AC power, as VS pumps have a built in timer/controller. What most people do is wire the VS pump to the line side (input) of the timer and the salt system to the load side (output) of the same timer. Then set the cell to come on "inside" the operating time for the pump. So, if you schedule the pump to run from 7 am until 7 pm, then set the salt system to run from 8 am until 6 pm.. This is just to cover any slight timing error between the two.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Newdude]

Mine are wired to the same breaker and I have 2 times. Summertime and Wintertime. Either 24/7 low rpm or Off.

 

[JRC1954]

Jeff,

The first thing you need to do to select a SWCG is know the volume of your pool.. A SWCG needs to be at least 2 x the volume of the pool.. An RJ-45, may be too small for your pool, which I "guess" to be about 30K gallons..

Cells are rated when running at 100% output and 24/7... You do not want to do that if you can help it.

All salt saltwater pools need to be wired so that the salt system never gets power when the pump is off.. This is simple with a single speed pump.. Just wire the power to the pump and the salt system to the same timer.

It is not so easy with a VS pump as they normally get constant AC power, as VS pumps have a built in timer/controller. What most people do is wire the VS pump to the line side (input) of the timer and the salt system to the load side (output) of the same timer. Then set the cell to come on "inside" the operating time for the pump. So, if you schedule the pump to run from 7 am until 7 pm, then set the salt system to run from 8 am until 6 pm.. This is just to cover any slight timing error between the two.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks Jim. I was actually thinking that I’d probably have the VS pump running 24/7 albeit at lower speeds that would eliminate a timer altogether? Or would I need a timer for the SWG? But I’m not sure it’s worth switching out the pump.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jeff,

Just depends on what you want to do.. If you run (any pump) 24/7, then your salt system would not need a timer.

Assuming your pool is 30K, I took a look and it appears that you would have to run your pump about 9 hours to produce the chlorine you would need with an RJ-45.. this is because the RJ-45 appears to make more chlorine that the major brands.. Most major brands with 40K cells produce 1.4 lbs of chlorine gas.. The RJ-45 makes 2.0 lbs.. Edit.. I see where you say your pool is 26K, so that give you plenty of room to reduce your pump time if you wanted..

Running a VS pump 24/7 costs next to nothing.. Running a single speed pump would cost a lot more.

From my point of view running a VS pump 24/7 makes sense as it allows you to constantly skim and constantly make chlorine.. Running a single speed pump only makes sense if you set the output of your cell to 100%, and run if for as short a period of time as you can.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JRC1954]

Jeff,

Just depends on what you want to do.. If you run (any pump) 24/7, then your salt system would not need a timer.

Assuming your pool is 30K, I took a look and it appears that you would have to run your pump about 9 hours to produce the chlorine you would need with an RJ-45.. this is because the RJ-45 appears to make more chlorine that the major brands.. Most major brands with 40K cells produce 1.4 lbs of chlorine gas.. The RJ-45 makes 2.0 lbs.. Edit.. I see where you say your pool is 26K, so that give you plenty of room to reduce your pump time if you wanted..

Running a VS pump 24/7 costs next to nothing.. Running a single speed pump would cost a lot more.

From my point of view running a VS pump 24/7 makes sense as it allows you to constantly skim and constantly make chlorine.. Running a single speed pump only makes sense if you set the output of your cell to 100%, and run if for as short a period of time as you can.

Thanks,

Jim R.

That’s where my head was at reading so far in this forum. A VS pump running constantly would probably be my best bet for cleaning efficiency. Letting the pool sit overnight always seems to lead to things floating then sinking to the bottom without circulation, leading to more vacuum work. Do you think the RJ-60 would be the better choice in the long run?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jeff,

Since you are in PA and your pool is 26K rather than the 30K I thought it to be, an RJ45 should work fine..

That said, it never hurts to go big on a SWCG... It just means you can run them at a lower output..

One thing I would check on is to see how big of steps the output percentage is on the SWCG you buy.. If possible get one that has smaller increments so that you can have finer control of the output. Some only have 20 or 25% steps..

Thanks.

Jim R.

 

[onlyjeeps]

The RJ series he is looking at has adjustments in 5% steps. A few other Ciru-Pool series also have that level of adjustment but most of theirs are 25% steps. So, in this thought process, the RJ series is a better choice. There are other advantages to the RJ series over other series as well such as local salt level display and water temp. The offset is the price is slightly more than the others. Choices.

 

[waterl0gged]

Jeff,

What most people do is wire the VS pump to the line side (input) of the timer and the salt system to the load side (output) of the same timer. Then set the cell to come on "inside" the operating time for the pump. So, if you schedule the pump to run from 7 am until 7 pm, then set the salt system to run from 8 am until 6 pm.. This is just to cover any slight timing error between the two.

Thanks,

Jim R.

This a great way to wire up a SWG with a VS pump using the standard timer. May have to look into this !
Thanks JIM !

 

[onlyjeeps]

What most people do is wire the VS pump to the line side (input) of the timer and the salt system to the load side (output) of the same timer. Then set the cell to come on "inside" the operating time for the pump. So, if you schedule the pump to run from 7 am until 7 pm, then set the salt system to run from 8 am until 6 pm.. This is just to cover any slight timing error between the two.

This was my plan

 

[waterl0gged]

Jeff,
I have the exact same size pool as you, and live about an hour from Hershey (to the north), so same area. . I just ordered an RJ60 after much debating . Basically I did not want to have the RJ45 running for very long periods of time , doing what the RJ60 could do in less time and possibly a longer life span with the RJ60 . The difference is about $250. , but consider how much extra the pump may have to run with the RJ45 to do the same as the RJ60 . In the end, the RJ60 may actually be cheaper in the long run !

 

[onlyjeeps]

And I'm about 1.5 hrs SouthEast of you Jeff! I also have the same size pool and ordered the RJ-60+ just as waterl0gged did.

As far as the wiring goes as discussed above, if you ran the VS pump 24/7 then of course there would be no issue running the SWG. If you wanted to run less time and on a schedule you would be relying on the SWG flow switch as the "on/off" control device for the SWG control because a VS pump has power to it all of the time. Even though the SWG manual says it can be done this way, it is not normally recommended by FTPers here. In your case having only one wire running all the way to the pool from your basement for the pump, I honestly don't see another way without getting a little more creative such as a wifi smart plug at the pad and that would have to have scheduling in the phone app to work correctly and be able to receive wifi out there also. Or a more exotic setup involving a low voltage transformer and relay, etc. Food for thought. @4/7 would be the easy way to go with a VS pump.

 

[JRC1954]

Thanks all. I fell for the sale that Discountsaltpool.com had on that ended last night. Went with the Circupool RJ45 and 2HP VS pump. Given my desire to run the pump longer (albeit at a lower speed) I figured the RJ45 would be acceptable. If I find that I don’t need the SWCG running 24/7, I will look into an outdoor timer.
Reading the installation material, it seems to indicate that the pump should be on a dedicated circuit? Anyone have an issue with the SWCG and pump on the same circuit? Otherwise, another wire will need to be run, which is mucho inconvenient given the logistics involved.
Thanks for all the input so far!

 

[onlyjeeps]

@JRC1954 there will be no issues running the SWG on the same circuit as the pump. The SWG draws minimal power. I'm away from my computer right now otherwise I would quote it but memory says something like 2A when wired for 240v (your situation) and 4A when wired for 120v. Many folks here have done it that way. Again I would link a few posts if I were at my computer. It's also how I will be wiring mine this weekend.

Thinking about what you said above, if you could move your timer outside by the pump safely (box is waterproof, have a post to mount to, etc) you could then wire it just like most people do when upgrading from a single speed pump to a VS pump. This is where the VS pump is wired to the line side of the timer there by having power all the time as required by a VS pump, then you wire the SWG to the timer load side where the pump was wired so that the SWG is now on the timer program set to operate inside the time settings you put in the pump timer. This is to protect the SWG from potentially being on when the pump is off. I know the flow switch is there for a similar purpose but really that's a safety device, not a control device. Maybe this could work for you?

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Thanks all. I fell for the sale that Discountsaltpool.com had on that ended last night. Went with the Circupool RJ45 and 2HP VS pump. Given my desire to run the pump longer (albeit at a lower speed) I figured the RJ45 would be acceptable. If I find that I don’t need the SWCG running 24/7, I will look into an outdoor timer.
Reading the installation material, it seems to indicate that the pump should be on a dedicated circuit? Anyone have an issue with the SWCG and pump on the same circuit? Otherwise, another wire will need to be run, which is mucho inconvenient given the logistics involved.
Thanks for all the input so far!

I have read that they draw about 100W or so. IF you run it on a pump circuit, I would advise a 220V hookup so you don't imbalance the lines to the pump, possibly throwing a ground fault at the same time. Or you could run a separate 110V circuit which isn't hard. A 110/15A 14 ga wire circuit on a standard GFCI would be fine (like one for lights if you have it already). The input transformers on these things have jumper settings for either.

Do you mind me asking what DSP dinked you for shipping? I am thinking of buying, and I might also get lured into one of their sales that almost always seems to be on, but in my case I need to get my TA down a bit and let the pH rise back up (for a lower TA CSI balance point), so I probably won't be installing the cell for another month. I'd rather have the warranty and initial install happen immediately when I first get the unit.

DSP has the best prices overall, but only with the $1 gimmick. IF their shipping is $25 or so ... then I can buy the same units from other vendors for $25 more... so I just am wondering if I should rush the project or not since this time they only extended it to today. I am leaning towards buying it when I get the water when I want.. but... I also am concerned about liquid chlorine availability...

 

[Jimrahbe]

Went with the Circupool RJ45 and 2HP VS pump.

JRC,

Make sure you get the pump unions!!!

Edit.. Which pump did you get? I don't see a 2 HP pump????

Jim R.

 

[JRC1954]

I was thinking the same, but making it even more simple - if the pump is running 24/7 there really is no need to time the SWG. I think I’ll be able to notch down the RJ-45 enough to not over chlorinate and thereby everything runs all the time. The pump only draws about 8amps and the cell about 2 then I’m well within the capacity of the breaker/wiring. Running both continuously will still cost considerably less that running my single speed pump for 10 hours per day!

I’m looking forward to getting the equipment to see what I need to do in terms of placement and hookup. Temps are not yet where I really need to get it open yet, but the mild winter has provided some algae growth that I’ll have to deal with. Test kit arrives tomorrow so I can see what’s going on with the chemicals.
I’ll have to figure out the piping. I have all 1 1/2 inch lines on suction index returns and I believe the pump has 2” connections. Since no pool stores are open, I’m going to have to order what I need once I see the layout and let Prime deliver.
exciting times but just a little scary!

 

[JRC1954]

JRC,

Make sure you get the pump unions!!!

Edit.. Which pump did you get? I don't see a 2 HP pump????

Jim R.

A few hours too late Jim. As per my other post, it isn’t imperative as the temps are not near opening yet but it would have been good to figure that out ahead of time ?

 

[JRC1954]

I have read that they draw about 100W or so. IF you run it on a pump circuit, I would advise a 220V hookup so you don't imbalance the lines to the pump, possibly throwing a ground fault at the same time. Or you could run a separate 110V circuit which isn't hard. A 110/15A 14 ga wire circuit on a standard GFCI would be fine (like one for lights if you have it already). The input transformers on these things have jumper settings for either.

Do you mind me asking what DSP dinked you for shipping? I am thinking of buying, and I might also get lured into one of their sales that almost always seems to be on, but in my case I need to get my TA down a bit and let the pH rise back up (for a lower TA CSI balance point), so I probably won't be installing the cell for another month. I'd rather have the warranty and initial install happen immediately when I first get the unit.

DSP has the best prices overall, but only with the $1 gimmick. IF their shipping is $25 or so ... then I can buy the same units from other vendors for $25 more... so I just am wondering if I should rush the project or not since this time they only extended it to today. I am leaning towards buying it when I get the water when I want.. but... I also am concerned about liquid chlorine availability...

Rattus - DSP free shipping in my case!

 

[Brett S]

DSP has the best prices overall, but only with the $1 gimmick. IF their shipping is $25 or so ... then I can buy the same units from other vendors for $25 more.

For what it’s worth, I just got an RJ-30+ from DSP and they changed me about $12.40 for ‘economy‘ shipping. I ordered Monday morning, they shipped via UPS Monday afternoon and I had it and got it installed yesterday afternoon. They ship from Houston, TX