Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[Schwimmbad]

Of course, just a guess on my part.

Winner winner chicken dinner! Spot on.

Final plumbing diagram.


Curious how tough it would be to covert the chiller return to a main drain?

It would probably be fairly costly as the engineering has additional rebar detail and we would have to set a channel housing. In addition to the obvious plumbing work at the pad, I'm guessing it means chipping out the shotcrete, epoxy in rebar details, set the housing, concrete in the whole thing and than plaster (which would never look right).

I won't ever do it, but whenever we sell the house, if someone get's hung up on that I could give them an idea of what it would take. I could tell the rebar guys to install rebar as if it's a main drain. I'll bet if I don't say anything they will assume it is and put the rebar in for it anyway. If I really wanted to make it easy, Couldn't I just install the A&A channel drain but have it function as a return? Than if anyone ever wanted to convert it to a main drain all it would take is some plumbing work. Is this a hair brained scheme?

 

[Schwimmbad]

Couldn't I just install the A&A channel drain but have it function as a return? Than if anyone ever wanted to convert it to a main drain all it would take is some plumbing work. Is this a hair brained scheme?

In addition to my question above, I've got another one.

I assume the bonding to the rebar must be done before my pre-gunite inspection. Is that correct? And is there any reason I can't do that part myself?

My rebar will be done today. My electrician won't be able to get here until 9/21. I assume that bonding must be done before inspection? I can run to home depot to get some rebar bonding clamps and some bare #8. I just don't know where to bond and where to run the wire. Can anyone here help me out with some detailed guidance? I'm an electrical engineer that worked 30 years at one of the largest utility companies in the nation, I can certainly handle some bonding work, just need to know the requirements. I'm hoping to avoid having to figure it all out myselft.

I don't want to wait an extra week and a half for him. I'd love to get the inspection done so I can be cleared for the shotcrete company. They don't want to put me on their schedule until I pass inspection and it is likely two weeks out after passing inspection.

 

[mknauss]

Electrical Bonding - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

Best to see if you can have a phone conversation with the Inspector and ask what he will be looking for with the bonding wires. Usually the electricians in the area have learned what the Inspector wants to see.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Great reading @mknauss, thank you. This hits the spot.

Best to see if you can have a phone conversation with the Inspector and ask what he will be looking for with the bonding wires. Usually the electricians in the area have learned what the Inspector wants to see.

And great suggestion @ajw22. I was planning to call the inspector today to confirm what version of the NEC they require and what must be done to pass pre-gunite.

 

[proavia]

As for the chiller return.
Call A&A and ask if their channel drain is rated for reverse flow (chiller water flow).
Let us knkw what they say.

If you are set on the "convertible" option for the chiller rerurn, you can also install two floor returns. They would be plumbed to a single pipe that goes baxk to the pad. There are specific requirements, especially around the minimum distance they can be from each other. And they are usually in the deepest part of the pool. Your plumber should know the specifics.

Will be interesting to hear what the inspector says about that chiller return. He/she will probably initially think it's a main drain.

 

[ajw22]

Heat rises and cold falls.

Running the chiller line into the bottom of the pool will not give good cooling and water circulation. The cold water will stratify at the bottom of the pool and not mix with the warm water at the top.

Having returns for heated water in the floor of a pool works well with the heat rising and mixing with the cold air above.

That is why heating ducts should be by the floor and AC ducts should be by the ceiling.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Heat rises and cold falls.

Running the chiller line into the bottom of the pool will not give good cooling and water circulation. The cold water will stratify at the bottom of the pool and not mix with the warm water at the top.

Not that it matters, but I agree with you and can't argue with science that heat rises and cold falls.

However I am following the manufacturer's recommendation for optimal placement I'm attaching their installation, operation, and instruction manual. I assume (maybe a mistake) that the manufacturer has something behind their recommendation. Since this is coming up again I think I'll ask what they have to back up their recommendation and post their reply. It's been interesting to plan my pool for this even though I'm not installing it now (and maybe never!).

 

[mas985]

I think they are just trying to prevent looping the cold water back into the chiller inlet which would be very inefficient. By returning the cooler water to the deep end, it keeps the warmer and cooler water somewhat separated and so the chiller should be more energy efficient (higher COP). Although I can't think of a reason that the side wall would not work in a similar fashion if low enough.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Call A&A and ask if their channel drain is rated for reverse flow (chiller water flow).
Let us knkw what they say.

I’ll do that. Sometimes the simplest approach is overlooked, just ask! Duh

 

[proavia]

I’ll do that. Sometimes the simplest approach is overlooked, just ask! Duh

I've called them over the past24 years with questions and to get warranty replacements.
Always have had a pleasant experience. Hopefully that continues under Pentair as well.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Also, bit of update and a few questions.

As an update rebar went in today but they only sent one guy. He will be back tomorrow to finish. I went with an expansive soils engineering design at 45psf as my home builder said we have expansive soils in the area. That required #3 @ 6” O.C. on the floor and #4 @ 3” O.C. vertical, so quite a bit more steel. He will finish up tomorrow.

For questions:
1. A few bench elevations are off by as much 2”. Most are +/- 1” and some are spot on. How much “slop” is there with the Shotcrete? In other words can they make up any of it? I’m guessing the answer is they can add more, but can’t go less than 3” on both sides of the rebar. Is that right? If so, if the rebar for the bench is too high it would have to be lowered before Shotcrete. What is the real world answer?
2. Should rebar be up against any of the plumbing? It isn’t done yet but I’d like to know if I should ask him to fix it before he finishes tomorrow. Here are a few pics. Got message several other pictures are too large for the server.
3. I’ll be making sure the skimmers are caged in the rebar, but who actually make sure it is level in all directions? Shotcrete guy?

 

[kimkats]

@AQUA~HOLICS any input?

My gut says have the rebar as close to specs as possible as the shell blowers will follow the "outline" of the rebar.

 

[Toxophilite]

2. Should rebar be up against any of the plumbing? It isn’t done yet but I’d like to know if I should ask him to fix it before he finishes tomorrow. Here are a few pics. Got message several other pictures are too large for the server.

Normally, those throughs should be securely wire tied to rebar. When they shoot the gunite, it's heavy and high pressure and can crack plumbing further up.

 

[ajw22]

The big issue that I see with your rebar is it is lying on the ground instead of being above the ground, supported by chairs, so that the rebar can be encapsulated within the floor.

The rebar also looks too close to the walls in places for proper encapsulation.

Rebar Placement - PoolPro

Rebar, or reinforced steel poles, are a vital structural element of a pool. They are used to support the concrete, which would move and break if set against

poolpromag.com

Incorrect or inadequate rebar placement can have significant negative effects on the performance of the pool structure. “Placing them too close to the surface or earth can cause corrosion of the reinforcement,” Benedetti says. “Placement within the wall is also critical for the wall to overcome the anticipated loads. Spacing the bars too far apart or creating congestion with too many bars bundled together can cause what is called shadowing, or hollow pockets behind the bars.”

 

[Schwimmbad]

Normally, those throughs should be securely wire tied to rebar. When they shoot the gunite, it's heavy and high pressure and can crack plumbing further up.

Will the shotcrete company tie the plumbing to the rebar?

The big issue that I see with your rebar is it is lying on the ground instead of being above the ground, supported by chairs, so that the rebar can be encapsulated within the floor.

They brought a bunch of chairs that I expect they will place after he finishes today.

The rebar also looks too close to the walls in places for proper encapsulation.

Thank's for pointing that out. I'll take a closer look today.

By the way I'm sending my measurements to the rebar and excavation company today and ask how they plan to fix the bench depths. I don't know what is considered acceptable tolerances though.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

You are correct that the minimum Shotcrete is 3” to in case the rebar. Real world applications are to do what it takes to have the finished elevation completely level on the surface, it’s amazing how much damage a crew will impact the cage with as they apply their product.

Its typical to have the rebar against the plumbing and secured to it.
Your pool has straight lines and the Shotcrete crew will first square it up with piano wire to shoot the product to the correct thickness. Free form pools are less time consuming to set up than straight walled pools.

The Shotcrete crew is responsible for the skimmer to be plumbed prior to application and afterwards. Do yourself a favor and stuff the skimmer hole (bottom where the the two holes are located) with paper to keep any Shotcrete from getting to that area.

If time permits, pound down the pig tails from all the crossings so they are facing the dirt side of the shell.
Have your system ready for keeping the shell hydrated after application, and if you are present during that time hydrate the shell that they are finished with before it looses it darker color, that is showing you its loosing it surface water.

Take pictures of all the bonding wire connections to the rebar and locations of the wires so they can be located if they get buried under the Shotcrete.

Shotcrete is the day that sets the pool in its final shape and it can be manipulated to a small degree to make it exactly what you had in mind with some final adjustments.

 

[Toxophilite]

Will the shotcrete company tie the plumbing to the rebar?

Could be plumber, rebar crew or shotcrete. Could be none of aforementioned each banking on the other. That's why the GC or OC is needed.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Lots of really good points and tips @AQUA~HOLICS. I copied these to my shotcrete prep checklist. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

If you’re doing a checklist, here’s a few other items to be looking for.

Those guidewires I explained for keeping the pool square will be cut once they are not needed anymore ensure that they cut them deep enough into the shotcrete so there’s none at the surface.
The pool is square at the top, where it meets the tile, but have the crew radius all the corners 18 inches below the surface. This will allow your pool sweep to run smoothly in the corners and not get stuck.
All the edges of steps and seats need to be cut at a 45 not a straight 90, this will allow for more plaster product to be applied over the radius.
If you are having a dedicated overflow line, have that located on the house side of the pool so you won’t see it from the house.
When the first concrete truck shows up, check the way ticket to ensure the PSI of the mix is what you paid for and also check the time that the truck left the yard, you have 90 minutes to have it applied.