New Filberglass pool install. 2" off level

To me this is absolutey NOT acceptable, the fact the PB is discussing hiding the tremendous error is ridiculous. They need to fix it. I would never be able to live with that.

Good luck!! Stop feeling bad, you paid good money for that pool, would you feel bad if you bought a new car with 4 flat tires? Would you let them plug them or demand new tires?
 
Just know the warranty is only good if the builder is in business under the current name. I would personally have it all redone.

+1 ^ A warranty is ONLY good if he is still in business and I am guessing he will not be. I had a fence installer who advertised being in business for XX years. Turned out he added the years that he had worked during his middle and high school years with his dad. When he installed my fence, he had only been doing it in his own for six months and he was out of business before he finished. He promised me several things to make up for his mistakes. When I called, the number was disconnected. Hold the final payment until the pool is EXACTLY as it should be. If you had wanted a waterfall, certainly you would have contracted it from the beginning. I am guessing you have no real desire for a waterfall. Also, as has been mentioned, the waterfall is going to be after the fact and therefore, likely problematic and the original problem will still exist.

I understand the labor involved in leveling the pool but as the builder, he should have known this too. Perhaps, there are some components of the build that do not have be monitored but this was not one of them. He screwed up and he has to take responsibly AFTER you definitively say, the pool MUST be leveled. There will be no attempts to install additional features. If he cannot or will not do this, the final $6500 remains in your bank account.
 
Suz & Kim - it's interesting you assumed the redo would involve a new fiberglass pool. I assumed the opposite. When I had to have mine re-leveled there were no cracks, deformations, etc. in the fiberglass shell. It was in exactly the same shape as when brand new. I did not mind them reusing it at all. I was in that house for 10 years and never had an issue with the structure of the pool.
 
Suz & Kim - it's interesting you assumed the redo would involve a new fiberglass pool. I assumed the opposite. When I had to have mine re-leveled there were no cracks, deformations, etc. in the fiberglass shell. It was in exactly the same shape as when brand new. I did not mind them reusing it at all. I was in that house for 10 years and never had an issue with the structure of the pool.

No, I really thought (until right before my post) that it would be the same pool. But then I worried what shape it would be in once pulled out and put back in. I don't know anything about fiberglass pools, so probably my questions should have been kept to myself. I was curious. It could be he won't need the pool pulled out. I really don't know. It's so good to hear it to turned out great for you. That could be a typical result of a not-so-typical installation. I really hope so!

Take care,
Suz.
 
I hope so, too. I don't know if we've lost the OP, but would be nice to learn what he decides to do. If he comes back on, if he'd like, I'll post some pics of when they had to dig out my pool and re-level, so he can get an idea of what's involved.
 
Hey gang. I'm BAAACK! Here is a update for you all. I'm sorry I left you all hanging. But don't worry! The drama continues! For those of you just joining us, my pool was installed in May, 2015, and in one corner, it's off level by close to 2". I did not accept the install and I am with holding final payment of about $6K.


A few points:
1. I talked directly to the san juan sales rep. I sent him pictures and videos of the pool. He agreed that the pool should never have been laid in the ground as is. However, he said the problem isn't bad enough to cause him any concern, and San juan would still honor the warranty.

2. The san juan warranty is kind of weak. It only helps, if the pool cracks and is actually leaking. SO I have asked my pool company for an "extended" warranty, that covers gel coat cracking crazing, all parts, all labor... basically if the pool cracks, they replace it, without a dime out of my pocket. This company has been in business for over 25 years, so I have no reason to believe they will disappear.

3. I told the pool company that I was willing to try a raised water fall feature, and tile, all the way around the pool, at their expense. The water feature will completely hide the problem. Here is a picture of what it would look like:

waterfallpentair.jpg


I told them I wanted the water feature and tile, and it needed to LOOK GOOD. If they didn't want to do that, I told them they could rip the pool out and re set it. They chose option one.

We had an absolute blast in the pool this summer. We swam almost every day. But now it's cold out and it's time for them to do the work. They started about a week ago. The waterfall riser is coming along well. Now they are installing the tile. They let me pick my own tile. They said I should chose a 2x2 tile, (which was a mistake I think). There is variances in the level-ness of the pool, going all the way around. So they are trying to hit the waterline, on the 2nd row of tiles. Then, to prevent a huge gap on the top, they are moving the top row of tiles up a bit, in order to split the difference, so now I have a gap ABOVE AND BELOW the top row of tiles. TO make matters worse, I'm not sure these guys have ever installed tile. It was like watching Larry, moe and curly.

I am not sure I can accept this tile job at all. In addition, they should have told me to get 6" tile. With 6" tile, we could start the tile in the highest point, then as we go around the pool, we could shave the tops of other tiles off 1/4" or so, in order too keep the gap at the top (between the tile and the coping) the same.

It's hard to explain, so I made a video. I know it's kind of long but please watch it and tell me your opinions. My thoughts are... we rip off this tile, we re-order 6" tiles instead (something like this: National Pool Tile Seven Seas 6x6 Pool Tile | Lake Blue | PA41 ) and then start over. But I am open to suggestions.

Click here to watch video:
PoolTile - YouTube

PoolLookinGood.jpg
 
I have many opinions about this, actually. We, too have a fiberglass pool that is not level. And our PB makes your PB look like a real professional, believe me. But even my PB knew that my pool was not accepatable the first 3 or 4 times he tried to level it (he did it a total of 6 or 8 times). My pool is only off about a half an inch here or there, but guess what? My eyes (and I believe most poeple's eyes) tend to go right to the water line. So I notice it. And it drives me crazy. I think 2" would make me insane.

So having said that, I agree with everyone else here that I would have had it re-done properly. It is not even close to being within industry standards.

But, having said all of that and watching your tile video, I think the tile is a huge improvement because the eye naturally goes to the water line and the tile distracts you and at least gives the appearance of a level pool. Here's what I would have done differently, however. Why not put the large gap between the bottom set of tiles and the middle tiles? The reason I say this is because the water line will be above this gap and you might not even notice it much being that it is under water.

There are a couple of areas where the tile doesn't look so great (they need to redo those sections in my opinion, more grout or whatever). But overall I do feel that the tile is an improvement. The real question is, can you live with it? By the audio in your video, I'd say no. You seem very disappointed.

What's that old saying? You can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end, it's still a pig. :p
 
Nope, nope, nope! Did I say nope? I like your idea of the 6" tile and shaving a tiny bit off to make it look like they are all level BUT I would think about buying some cheap 6" tiles (10 or so???) and seeing what that really looks like in real life.....will it be as noticeable as the bigger grout lines? I also question if they could do it with out making it look like a hack job. I don't this this crew could. Just look at the grout-------that is just waiting for algae to grow and being almost impossible to clean/clear.

I still say remove and replace the whole thing would be MY first pick.........Just for the record.

Kim
 

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Wow! Yeah, that 2 inch tile looks like it was not a good idea. It looks like a complete hack job with the grout separating the tiles further and everything. A bigger tile to hide the leveling difference under the water is a MUCH better idea, not this weirdo thicker grout thing with smaller tiles.
 
Gang, thanks for all the support here. I ran this situation by my father as well. He agreed with all of you, and here is his wise response:

>>>>>>Well here's what I think.. first you have to back up your thinking. You didn't pay a reduced price to get a pool that was off level right? So you're already settling with the pool that IS not level. Now are you expected to "Settle" again for a cosmetic cover up fix that is (again) not done correctly? You will NEVER get over the fact that your pool is off level, but you might be able to live with it if the FIX is done exactly like you want it,,(which is all you ever wanted when the pool was originally installed). SO,, you have to ask yourself, what will make me satisfied with the finished product. If it was me I'd be happy with the tile job if it looked like a professional job and not an afterthought. Your idea of larger square tiles might be the way to go.. but the job they've done so far is really an inferior looking job and I would not accept it.. but remember in ANY negotiation both sides have to give a little and both sides need to win some part of the negotiation, so you might want to consider a solution that will benefit both of you once and for all.. sometimes the idea of "I'll do whatever it takes to satisfy the customer" is simply not realistic and virtually impossible.<<<<

This morning we told the PB that we could not accept the tile install. He understood, and agreed that up close, it looks bad. I told him we have been agonizing over the tile all weekend, to the point where the stress level is very high. We don't want to waste a day of their guy's tile work, plus another day of tearing it out. But we told him, we're already settling with a non-conforming pool that is not level. We can't settle for a fix that is not done correctly either.

Now, keep in mind, we are ONLY talking about the waterline tile job, around the pool where the pool is fairly level. But even so, there are still rises of 3/8" here and there, which is just typical of a fiberglass pool. It's just not a perfect shell, straight from the factory. We haven't even started putting tile on the fountain riser yet. Putting waterline tile on a fiberglass pool, can actually make it look MORE off level, because of horizontal lines in the tile.

That said, he is not a magician, and the task at hand is daunting with no easy solution. There are many threads online, of people with similar problems, and the bottom line is, there is no clear cut, easy solution. He knows if we can't solve it to our satisfaction, he will have to reset the pool. 2 weeks ago, my wife and I did not even realize that the other variations in level would be an issue. We only thought the challenge would be in the fountain area.

We have been researching all weekend. We have found some people using 6 x 6" tiles, and what we're finding more-so, is people are using 1x1 tile, laying them level at the water line, and cutting tiles at the top to conform to variations in the height of the pool rim / coping. There are even more horizontal lines with 1x1 tile, however the lines are tighter, and any variations at the waterline, and the coping line, are much less noticeable.

My PB showed me some "wave" tile today that might just work as a solution. He found this tile at NPT that I had totally missed. It seems this would hide minor variations in the level-ness of the pool.

wave1.jpg

wave2.jpg

WAVE3.jpg

I have not got a price on this tile yet; I'm sure it's outrageous. But wow, this could be a solution! I just ordered some samples of this, plus some 6x6 tiles, plus some 1x1 tiles. I will keep you all posted.
 
This just in... NPT just told me they will NOT send samples of the WAVE tile to ME or my PB. They said we would need to order it, sight unseen. And the price.... is ridiculous. More than $40 per square foot.

So it looks like the wave tile is OUT of the running.
 
This just in... NPT just told me they will NOT send samples of the WAVE tile to ME or my PB. They said we would need to order it, sight unseen. And the price.... is ridiculous. More than $40 per square foot.

So it looks like the wave tile is OUT of the running.

Why wouldn't he eat that tile?! You're eating so much more than he could ever eat in purchasing that tile for you. Unbelievable that he wouldn't just be like, I'm ordering it and we're going to make this work and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
VERY true!

That wave would help and since your PB showed it to you and he thinks he can make it work. HE should order it and have it put on by a master tile craftsman.

Kim

Hey gang I'm back with an update. I had a local guy come to the house. He does nothing but put tile on pools, build fountains and such. He took a long look at the pool. I did NOT tell him who my pool builder is. He said since the pool is mostly level except for this one corner, that the problem may indeed be with the shell of the pool. He said he works with several pool builders and the fiberglass shells are NOT perfect at all. He said, in these cases, you can't possibly level the ground to compensate, because THEN you really would be putting stress on the pool. He said he cannot be sure because he didn't see the pool being put in the hole, but he has a strong feeling it is the San Juan pool shell that is not correct. He said the fiberglass rim should have been cut off in the high area, and bla bla bla... he said it is a nightmare to attempt to correct. Regardless of all that, the PB should have noticed it, and corrected it.

I work from home, so I was here every day during the install. I watched pretty much everything happen and I was out there, every time I saw something I didn't like (often). I personally watched them level the gravel, pack it, add more, repack, etc. When I looked in the hole, there was definitely NOT a high spot there.

Ok so now back to the tile. I've gotten several more tile samples. Now the challenge is, picking a SIZE tile that works, a color we like, and a pattern that works to hide the variances at the coping line. Keep in mind, this isn't even to fix the extra high spot in the corner, this is simply to make it look good all the way around. After several attempts with different sized tiles, we really can't find one that doesn't highlight a water line. Meaning, the tile won't be able to go all the way up to the coping, without the waterline looking bad (because the top of the pool is not perfect all the way around). So to fix that, we would have to install the tile based on the waterline, not the coping. That would leave spaces here and there with 1/2" between the top of the tile and the coping. So.... we are back to the WAVE pattern I showed you above.

TemplatesMerged.jpg

We found the 1/2 x 1/2 tiny tiles are just too small. They break easily too. We like the 1x1 glass tiles. So, my plan is to make a template, and individually glue tiles to new mesh sheets, to make my own tile sheets. The pattern will be similar to the idea we got from national pool tile:

wavetile.jpg

Here is picture of some 1x1 "brick pattern" tiles I installed and grouted myself, just to see how they would look. Notice I turned one 90 degrees. Didn't really care for it but I think it would work.

TileSamples.jpg

And here is the progress of the fountain riser wall:

wallProgress.jpg

I've told my PB to hold off until I decide how the tile will go. I am having a template made out of laser cut aluminum, so we can quickly lay down the mesh sheet, put the aluminum template on it, a drop of glue in each hole, then put a tile in each hole. Perfect sheet every time.

We are choosing the tile on the left, and ordering from USAPOOLDIRECT.com They have good prices on tile, fast shipping, and they have been great to deal with.

20160105_150618-1.jpg

My wife thinks I am completely INSANE to order tile sheets, rip all the tiles off the mesh, and re-glue to them more mesh, in a different pattern. I did the calculation today. It is almost 10,000 individual tiles. The way I see it, we will have something unique, and it will be impossible to see any flaws in the level-ness of the pool. Before, I didn't WANT tile. But now with this pattern and beautiful tile, I'm kind of excited about it. I'm ok working a month making individual tile sheets. It's winter. We can't swim anyway. It's gonna be awesome when it's done.

In the end, I hope to have a great solution for anyone who gets into a situation where they want to do waterline tile on their un-even, pool.

I will be back with an update in a few weeks.
 
Have you thought about going with a 2" or 4" or 6" tile on a diagonal diamond pattern? May hide the water line way better than the linear grout lines and larger tile will be a faster install than gluing individual mosaic tile to a sheet...
 
Guy,

I feel for you. I had a similar situation to you although not as dramatic and since I installed my pool myself I had no one to blame for it but me. It is true that these pools are not perfect on the top rail. Mine was the same way. I had the shell sitting in my front yard for over a month before I dropped it in so I checked it out very well and saw the dips and rises in the rail. But the manufacturer of mine actually addressed this in their install material for the pool. After dropping and seeing that everything is generally level, you find the highest point. As you back fill you can take a board and lift the coping of a low area to compensate it up a tad. Just direct more sand/gravel into that area to firm it up. It is all a moot point now but it's doable. In any event I didn't do good enough of a job on mine either and had to deal with it. String levels across a 25' span are not totally accurate!! I used 1" tiles as well. Definitely align the tile level with the water. Drop the water level to where you want the tile to start and get a wax pencil and mark the water line all the way around. Drop the water more and tile away along that line. But keep the grout lines consistent and hide issues at the top. Under a cantilevered lip you will hardly notice half cut tiles or partial tiles. Tile actually will make the deck/pool connection seal stronger too. Leave a normal tile gap between your top tile and the deck and then do the silicone grout right up into the bottom of the cantilever and it'll seal the tile job to the deck and give you a nice waterproof seal between the pool and deck.

As an aside I used my unlevelness to nice end. I ended up putting cantilever flagstone all around my pool. I found the very lowest part of the pool, and where the flagstone sits there, I ground a 1"x2" channel in the bottom of the flagstone from over the pool all the way back to a drain in the deck. Now during heavy rains, I have an auto-drain so the water level never gets above the pool wall.

Original install Keithw's pool pics

Flagstone project New pool proj.Flagstoning around (and on) my fiberglass pool

Keith
 

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