My New PentairSuperflo VS

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shane4

shane4

0
Jul 4, 2013
70
Ontario Canada
Hi All.
Been a while. But every new season (Southern Ontario Canada) I come by and catch up on some reading. So much here, all the time. In know many forums frown on asking q's that have already been dealt with, but with soooo much detail and information on this site, it is hard to know if you read it all and where to quickly find answers. Well for me anyways. So, if there are threads I missed on this, please direct me to them.

I replaced my Hayward 1HP Super Pump last week. She was getting really loud and hot! Bought a 1.5HP Pentair Superflo VS (Mod 342001).
Now I have lots of experimenting to do with RPM's and determining best flows for filtering, skimming, heating and simply movement (avoiding stagnant water).
I was wondering what suggestions and input members would have.

Firstly, the manual is vague on a few things.

Does anyone know how I can get an estimate on flow (gpm) based on what rpm the motor is set to? My plumbing is 1.5". I want to be able to determine time and speed for turning over the pool water.

The manual and the lid to the pump basket both refer to releasing pressure when opening the compartment for cleaning the basket or to bleed air when priming. However, I can not see any pressure release. Anyone have this pump who can explain what to do during priming and when opening basket compartment?

So far I have determined my heater fires up (and stays on) at 1050 rpm.

950 rpm not enough to fire heater and no movement in skimmer, but prevent the water from being stagnant. A few air bubbles appear in the pump basket compartment

1100 rpm creates steady rippling at the jets enough to get skimming working with a nice lazy spinning of the surface water in the skimmer basket. Water is hot to the touch at the jets

1500 rpm is a nice level of ripples at the jets and suction at the skimmer to keep surface nice and clear. I get lots of tree pollen, bugs, and stuff floating so I like surface to keep clear. Water is bath warm at the jets.

2500 rpm seems to be about as strong as the single speed Hayward Super Pump and I can get a decent vacuum job done.

I was told by the pool store the heater needs to cool down with enough water flow before dropping to a slow speed for simple movement. They had overnight set to 2500rpm for filtering and around 7am dropped to 1500rpm to cool heater and then an hour later drop to 950rpm for the rest of the day and when electricity is at peak costs (Ontario has time of day rates where more $ during day than night and weekends). They did not realize my heater still fires at 1500. So if the heater happens to be on at 1500 and then rpm drops to 950, should I be worried about not enough water flowing through the heater if it shuts down?

Any input to all or any of these matters is greatly appreciated!
 
Does anyone know how I can get an estimate on flow (gpm) based on what rpm the motor is set to? My plumbing is 1.5". I want to be able to determine time and speed for turning over the pool water.
Click to expand...
Read this: Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time

So if the heater happens to be on at 1500 and then rpm drops to 950, should I be worried about not enough water flowing through the heater if it shuts down?
Click to expand...
No, that should be fine. You just don't want to run the heater at too low of a flow rate but cool down should be fine.

But read the run time article. You are probably running your pump way too much.
 
I did see this article, thank you!

At this point I am trying to figure out run speeds as opposed to run time. Once I figure out what various speeds can do, then I can determine how long to run the pump.

I was at the pool store today and the tech ask me how the pump was so far. I mentioned that the other tech who installed the pump told me the 1500rpm speed set was to cool the heater. I explained to the tech at the store, that my heater was still firing at 1500. He was a bit surprised at that and indicated the heater should not come on at so low of an rpm or it could over heat. I did tell him the water out the return jets at that speed was hot to the touch. He indicated that is a problem and I should increase the heating speed to at least 1800 rpm. The water will be a bit cooler coming out of the jets but the heater wont be damaged.

Gee, thanks for making me feel secure. Shouldn't a tech know what my heater is capable of and be able to analyze my set up and make settings accordingly. I feel like if I did not go in today I never would have known. Or at least that one tech is doing things completely different than the others. Not much customer confidence here now.


Is what this tech is saying make any sense? To me it does make sense that the slower the water flows, the more efficient the heater will heat the water, but I can also understand that too little of a flow would over heat the internals of the heater. Would Raypack's pressure switch not be set to a level that would permit heating but not damaging the heater???????
 
Actually, the heater is less efficient on lower speed. The water temperature is higher but because of that, heat loss is higher too so the heater is less efficient. But that is probably not what you are interested in at this point.

Heaters generally use pressure switches and not flow meters so the heater really does not know if the flow rate is fast enough or not. However, slower flow rates will have lower pressure so at some point the heater will shut off when the pressure drops.

What is the pump motor wattage when running at 1500 RPM?

Also, can you describe the pool plumbing post heater:

Number of runs going to the pool and pipe size?

Number of eyeballs (returns) in the pool and the exit size?
 
If you look thru the sticky "Hydraulics 101" thread at the top of this forum, you will eventually find a link to a spreadsheet for pump data. According to that spreadsheet the data for a 1.5HP Pentair Superflo pump run at 3450 rpm is as follows:

37 gpm pulls 1,545 watts
59 gpm pulls 1,738 watts
76 gpm pulls 1,857 watts

So if my understanding is correct you can run your pump at 3450 rpm and obtain the watts. From this data above you can then determine your gpm at 3450 rpm.

GPM at other rpm can be calculated as follows:

GPM at rpm A = GPM at 3450 * RPM A / 3450

So if your pump gives 60 gpm at 3450 rpm, it will give 30 gpm at 1725 rpm etc etc
 
Hi Mas985, sorry for the tardy response.
Have to admit, the heat loss understanding hurts my brain (especially at 2:22am). I get the fact that hotter water loses heat at a greater rate. But regardless of flow, the heater uses the same amount of gas. So if I slow the speed the water gets to heat up more. Would that not mean hotter water going into the pool?
Also, can I assume if my heater comes on at a given flow, then I should trust Raypak and that I will not damage the heater at lower speed. Currently, the heater will stay on at 1050 rpm but my pool store recommended 1800rpm which I am doing.

As for my pool
1500 rpm is running at 224 watts
1800 rpm is running at 330 watts
all my plumbing is 1.5".
one skimmer and one main drain at the 8' deep end
they come out of the ground just before the pump/filter/heater pad and then come together and into the pump. From there it goes up about 2' and across about 1.5' to the filter. From there about 2' back to the heater and from there another run about 2' before it goes back into the ground in front of the pad and then to the two eye balls (one shallow end and one deep end) in my pool.
The pad is about 10' from the edge of the pool

Peter, thank you for that summary of the pump data. Very easy for even my brain to understand. That will be just enough of a guide to assist with determining turn over time even though I do realize that pipe size, jets,etc will all play a role in the calculation as well.
 
Would that not mean hotter water going into the pool?
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Yes but the heat time is the same (neglecting heat loss). For example, 1/2x flow rate results in 2x DeltaT which results in the same heat time.

However, when you take heat loss into account, it will take the heater a little longer to get to the temperature setting at lower speeds than higher speeds. Same effect with solar.

At 1500 RPM, the pump will deliver about 17 GPM
At 1800 RPM, the pump will deliver about 20 GPM

That will be just enough of a guide to assist with determining turn over time even though I do realize that pipe size, jets,etc will all play a role in the calculation as well.
Click to expand...
Again, turnover time is irrelevant. It just doesn't matter for run time.
 

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your confused because ( "they" pool store, contractor, pump company, filter company, power company, your neighbor ) have all told you that you "HAVE" to turn your water over atleast 1 time....

What this community has found is once your pool is balanced you need to filter/run pump to keep your water at the clarity you want it.. Some people like REALLY clear water and use DE and run there pump 24/7.. some people run there pump an hour a day to circulate the chem's and are happy with the way the water looks.. every pool is differant and every owner likes the water a certain way... There is no "1 or correct" way to do it.. :)
 
shane4 said:
confused again. Should I not be aiming for at least one water turn over per 24 hour period? Knowing an approximate gpm will enable me to determine appropriate pump speeds to turn the water no?
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No, did you not read this: Pool School - Determine Pump Run Time

It takes only about 30 min on high speed for chlorine to circulate. After that it is only about cleaning debris out of the pool and perhaps heating both of which are purely optional. Also, you might want to read the pump run time article in my signature which states in the conclusions #2:

In most pools, increasing the pump running time above two hours results in imperceptible improvement in water quality.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Mark
I have read so many threads here, it is hard to remember what I have read and not. I know I read the ideal filtration of a pool is filter the volume of the pool at least once a day to remove the "dead" stuff. But I also read here (somewhere) that is somewhat of an old ideology.
Very overwhelming here with respect to all the amazing information. Thanks for the direction, I am off to read those threads again

- - - Updated - - -

Prs (peter)
My pump when running at 3450 rpm shows a power consumption of 2045 watts
that is higher than the options you indicated. I had trouble finding that "data link" you mentioned. I will look again for the gpm at the rpm of 3450 and wattage of 2045
cheers!
 
In the US, by law most public pools are required to target a minimum turnover rate of 6 hours which will turnover a pool 4x per day. This is necessary because the bather load can be very high and the pool must constantly circulate water to maintain proper sanitation levels. This is where the concept of turnover was originated. The pool industry then decided that they would just use the same concept for residential pool but lower the requirement. But given the bather load in most residential pools is so low, even 1 turnover is not really required. Simply adding chlorine and giving it time to circulate is enough time for just sanitation.

However, if I have a lot of people over to swim, I will usually leave the pump on low speed so chlorine is constantly being generated and circulated for the higher load and to make sure the FC does not dip below minimums. But for most days when we have zero swimmers, only the minimum run time for chlorine is really required to keep algae at bay.

Also, the link is in my signature. But I only have GPM estimates for the Intelliflo, Ecostar and Jep.
 
prs said:
If you look thru the sticky "Hydraulics 101" thread at the top of this forum, you will eventually find a link to a spreadsheet for pump data. According to that spreadsheet the data for a 1.5HP Pentair Superflo pump......
Click to expand...

Hi Peter, sorry I went through the thread but missed the link to Superflo spread sheet. There is one for the Inteliflo but those numbers were not the same as the ones you provided. Can you provide the link where you saw it? Thanx
 
Thanx Mark for those easy find links in your signature!
Although my pump is a Superflo I can see that the spreadsheet for the Inteliflo is about 55gpm at 2090watts at 3400 rpm. It will serve as a guide but I am understanding not to be concerned with gpm and run time and how many times to turn my pool.
I am going to find the right speeds on my own to keep my water crystal clear (which it was 99% of time with my Hayward Superpump running 24/7), skimmer working, heater happy and energy bills as low as possible.
Last week I had a single speed pump on 24/7, now I guess with a VS pump now and not being overly confident with pool chemistry and pumping knowledge, I just need to experiment.
 
shane4 said:
Prs (peter)
My pump when running at 3450 rpm shows a power consumption of 2045 watts
that is higher than the options you indicated. I had trouble finding that "data link" you mentioned. I will look again for the gpm at the rpm of 3450 and wattage of 2045
cheers!
Click to expand...
The data in the spreadsheet is from the APSP who run independent tests of pool pump efficiency. The data is taken under three different plumbing conditions that are supposed to represent typical residential pool plumbing configurations. You will have to use the three data points to estimate your GPM at 2045 watts. Luckily it looks like you have very low pressure drop in your plumbing and I figure 100 gpm would be pretty close to your actual at 3450 rpm. :cheers:

Here is the link to the Excel spreadsheet

Hydraulics 101 - Have you lost your head?

Click on Excel on the line "Pool Pump Tools*"

PS. I have a 20,000 gal pool and run my pump for three hours per day at about 50 gpm (skimmer and main drain only, they join together at the skimmer). This was the lowest speed I could go to and still have good action at my skimmer. I only need to use my suction side cleaner every now and again, and when I do I switch the valves and run it by itself at about 40 gpm.
 
I forgot to mention that you can also use the "Pool Tools" spreadsheet which has a lot more pumps available. I just added the Watts2GPM sheet to that so it can be used with any of the available pumps.

My pump when running at 3450 rpm shows a power consumption of 2045 watts
Click to expand...
That is about 79 GPM.
 
I see it now. I was looking at the wrong spreadsheet. The Watts2gpm is a great tool thanx! Not an exact science as the tool indicates 427 watts at 1800rpm when the control panel display indicates 330 watts. But as I am learning, it cannot be an exact science when there are so many variables.

While I started this thread I also sent a question to Pentair. No data to back it up, and their numbers are different but a tech provided the following. I thought it would be interesting to share......

Hi Shane

Because most pools are custom built, and the plumbing changes in shape and size; as well filter and heaters are all different, we can only give you some averages for pool performance.

Typically:

Average for pipe size 1.5” 2”

600 RPM will pump around 11 to 12 gallons per minute – 9 Watts

1150 RPM will pump around 22 to 30 gallons per minute – 74 Watts

1750 RPM will pump around 33 to 50 gallons per minute – 250 Watts

2100 RPM will pump around 36 to 55 (1/2 HP equivalent)

2350 RPM will pump around 39 to 60 (3/4 HP equivalent)

2400 RPM will pump around 44 to 70 gallons per minute – 593 Watts

2600 RPS will pump around 48 to 73 (1 HP equivalent)

2900 RPS will pump around 51 to 77 (1.5 HP equivalent)

3000 RPM will pump around 55 to 80 gallons per minute – 1157 Watts

3075 RPS will pump around 61 to 85 (2 HP equivalent)

3450 RPM will pump around 66 to 90/100 gallons per minute – 2000 Watts
 

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