I recently completed the ascorbic acid treatment as described in this sites thread. The results were amazing. The ugly brown iron stains are totally remove and the liner is blue once again. I am now bringing the chlorine back up slowly as directed. I don't know if this is a side effect, but I now have trouble with the DE filter rapidly rising pressure in a short period of time(4-6) hours. I figured the DE may have been contaminated with all the chemicals so I lived it and put in new DE. But the problem persists. I cleaned the filter with the Leslie's cleaner before I opened the pool in late May. Any ideas?
Can ascorbic acid treatment damage DE filter
- Thread starter Trukinbob
- Start date
Welcome to TFP! 
What is possibly happening is that you've removed the iron stains with the ascorbic acid and now that you are increasing the chlorine level the pH is probably higher as well and iron is precipitating in the water and getting caught in the filter. If that is what is happening, then that is a good thing since it means you may be removing some iron from your water. Look at the backwash/cleaning of the DE filter (when you eventually do that) and see if the water is rust colored. If so, then that's what is going on and is a good thing.
The other possibility is that one of the chemicals you added is some sort of coagulant that is getting caught in the filter. Some types of metal sequestrants behave that way especially in the presence of iron (such as Metal Magic).
What is possibly happening is that you've removed the iron stains with the ascorbic acid and now that you are increasing the chlorine level the pH is probably higher as well and iron is precipitating in the water and getting caught in the filter. If that is what is happening, then that is a good thing since it means you may be removing some iron from your water. Look at the backwash/cleaning of the DE filter (when you eventually do that) and see if the water is rust colored. If so, then that's what is going on and is a good thing.
The other possibility is that one of the chemicals you added is some sort of coagulant that is getting caught in the filter. Some types of metal sequestrants behave that way especially in the presence of iron (such as Metal Magic).
It also could be that algae was starting since it had low chlorine for a few days and now it's dying off and loading the filter.
A good backwash and some fresh DE ought to set things right.
A good backwash and some fresh DE ought to set things right.
It is now 2 weeks since I did the ascorbic acid. The filter seems to be operating ok now. (Not sure why) But now, much to my chagrin, The liner is starting to stain again. I brought the FC up slowly as directed and no shock. The PH is still low soI Added some Soda Ash. I also have the Culator in the skimmer to supposedly remove the iron. Can someone please help me solve this issue Once and for all.
If you are using the CuLator then if you run into any problems you should contact that company as they have specific instructions for certain pools. They will walk you through any specific procedures needed. Be sure to report here your results one way or the other.
Are you on well water?
The "once and for all" solution doesn't really exist if your source water has metal, I'm afraid. Unless you replace the water and have metal-free source water, you will need to titrate your sequestrant even to prevent stains, eg. Add more sequestrant every few weeks...observe how long you can go til you need more...as soon as there's a faint tinge to steps, etc., add.
The AA is great for removing the stains, but has little to no effect on the presence of metals themselves.
I used to do the AA treatments, but now instead use Metal Magics sponge test to do a stain-removing level of dose and then just keep it topped up thereafter. Its been far more hassle-free for me that way -- my pool is vinyl with a sand filter and that approach has worked for me, but does not work for everyone. Ymmv.
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
If you ARE on well, and would like to prevent adding more metal to the pool it is possible to have a whole house softener plumbed to an outdoor spigot for pool top ups. I've done this and have now reduced my iron load to .3 ppm via splash out backwash, etc.
However, with softener's its pretty easy to inadvertently tap out capacity whie topping up the pool, which then cause the same metals to get in for part of the fill. For that reason I've now upgraded to a dual tank system for greater capacity and continual regeneration if needed.
If your source water doesn't actually have metals and your staining is from some kind of one time event, then a careful partial water change will help you reduce the levels (never drain a vinyl liner pool lower than a foot in the shallow end, and if the liner's old, seriously consider small partial drains instead to avoid wrinkles, floating, etc.)
Hope that helps you get some ideas for control.
The "once and for all" solution doesn't really exist if your source water has metal, I'm afraid. Unless you replace the water and have metal-free source water, you will need to titrate your sequestrant even to prevent stains, eg. Add more sequestrant every few weeks...observe how long you can go til you need more...as soon as there's a faint tinge to steps, etc., add.
The AA is great for removing the stains, but has little to no effect on the presence of metals themselves.
I used to do the AA treatments, but now instead use Metal Magics sponge test to do a stain-removing level of dose and then just keep it topped up thereafter. Its been far more hassle-free for me that way -- my pool is vinyl with a sand filter and that approach has worked for me, but does not work for everyone. Ymmv.
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
If you ARE on well, and would like to prevent adding more metal to the pool it is possible to have a whole house softener plumbed to an outdoor spigot for pool top ups. I've done this and have now reduced my iron load to .3 ppm via splash out backwash, etc.
However, with softener's its pretty easy to inadvertently tap out capacity whie topping up the pool, which then cause the same metals to get in for part of the fill. For that reason I've now upgraded to a dual tank system for greater capacity and continual regeneration if needed.
If your source water doesn't actually have metals and your staining is from some kind of one time event, then a careful partial water change will help you reduce the levels (never drain a vinyl liner pool lower than a foot in the shallow end, and if the liner's old, seriously consider small partial drains instead to avoid wrinkles, floating, etc.)
Hope that helps you get some ideas for control.
The Metal Magic link you sent says that it turns the iron Into crystals which are then removed by the filter. Yet , you and others say that the metal can't be removed. The Culator claims to remove the metals, but after only 2 weeks, my whole liner is stained again. This pool was filled almost 10 years ago with city water.The town water is known to be hard, but had no effect on the pool till 3 or 4 years ago and got progressively worse. I changed my filter from sand to DE 4 years ago Could that be a factor.? I've had this pool for 25 years and have had just about every issue, but this metal staining is relatively new.
We didn't say that metal cannot be removed. On the contrary, it is easy to remove most of the iron since it is so insoluble. It's the last bit of iron to prevent staining that is more difficult. Metal Free attempts to capture it in the filter. That is one method. Another is to add pH Up (sodium carbonate) into the skimmer if the water is already saturated with calcium carbonate. Another is to use CuLator. Another is to raise the pH and use batting material.
What we said is that it is difficult to remove metals from the water so that most often one must sequester them. These removal techniques tend to be iffy.
So did you use the CuLator? If so and had it re-stain call the company up and tell them what went wrong. They will usually walk you through what is needed, may send you some more for free if it didn't work as they claim, and may give you some alternate instructions. If you do this, be sure to report back to us what happened. Since you spent money with them (and they aren't inexpensive), you should get them to prove their product. Otherwise, we will write them off as not working reliably and not being helpful, but so far they have helped people who have called them.
What we said is that it is difficult to remove metals from the water so that most often one must sequester them. These removal techniques tend to be iffy.
So did you use the CuLator? If so and had it re-stain call the company up and tell them what went wrong. They will usually walk you through what is needed, may send you some more for free if it didn't work as they claim, and may give you some alternate instructions. If you do this, be sure to report back to us what happened. Since you spent money with them (and they aren't inexpensive), you should get them to prove their product. Otherwise, we will write them off as not working reliably and not being helpful, but so far they have helped people who have called them.
Truckinbob, I treat Metal Magic as a good sequestrant and generally ignore the claims about actual removal because IME none of the myriad products I've tried do that 
MM does however, do an excellent job for me in terms of stain prevention/sequestering the metal, and it DOES remove something because I have to backwash sooner when I use it.
My iron ppm has dropped a lot in the last two seasons -- but I believe its the dilution plus replacement with softened water. In fairness, it could be in part due to the MM as well.
I did not have any luck at all with the CUlator...but that was a couple seasons back so I never dug into why. Maybe you'll have better results by contacting the mfg.
MM does however, do an excellent job for me in terms of stain prevention/sequestering the metal, and it DOES remove something because I have to backwash sooner when I use it.
My iron ppm has dropped a lot in the last two seasons -- but I believe its the dilution plus replacement with softened water. In fairness, it could be in part due to the MM as well.
I did not have any luck at all with the CUlator...but that was a couple seasons back so I never dug into why. Maybe you'll have better results by contacting the mfg.
I ordered some Metal Magic. Is it effective in removing the staining or do I need to do another AA treatment. This whol thing is getting pretty pricy.
And like I said, call the CuLator guys. You paid for their product and they should stand by it and help you get it right. If you can physically remove metals using their product, then that would avoid having to always be using a metal sequestrant (unless you keep getting new metal into the water from evaporation and refill if your fill water has metals).
Truckin, read this re stain removal.
In my case, 5 bottles worked as well as Ascorbic Acid:
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
In my case, 5 bottles worked as well as Ascorbic Acid:
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
If I follow the instructions, I would need 21 bottles of MM for my 30,000 gallon pool. That seems a bit much
What do you mean?
The test is based on the number of minutes it takes to remove the stain using the sponge. The goal is to test to see if it will work or not on your particular staining and if it works in a way that suits -- eg for me in my 23,000 gal pool, I needed 5...but i would have needed 2 anyway to do the AA treatment to sequester the metal.
If it takes LONG, than only use the MM as a sequestrant and go ahead with the AA - this way you still have something you needed to buy for the AA treatment anyway if you DON'T use it at stainng-removal strength.
If, on the other hand, it lightens/removes the stain during the test, and you decide its easier/cheaper to JUST us the MM, then order what you need and skip AA treatment.
The test is based on the number of minutes it takes to remove the stain using the sponge. The goal is to test to see if it will work or not on your particular staining and if it works in a way that suits -- eg for me in my 23,000 gal pool, I needed 5...but i would have needed 2 anyway to do the AA treatment to sequester the metal.
If it takes LONG, than only use the MM as a sequestrant and go ahead with the AA - this way you still have something you needed to buy for the AA treatment anyway if you DON'T use it at stainng-removal strength.
If, on the other hand, it lightens/removes the stain during the test, and you decide its easier/cheaper to JUST us the MM, then order what you need and skip AA treatment.
Ok Swampwoman, I did the sponge test and it immediately removed an area of staining. I then added 6 quarts of MM over a period of 24 hours and the staining was removed. I now have the milky cloudy water that prompted the title of this thread and my DE filter has rapidly rising pressure. I flushed and regenerated, but I'm wondering how many times I will have to do that before things bece stable. Any thoughts ?
If you had enough calcium in your water, the MM has bound to that and should clear in a few days. In theory, the mfg suggests it will take some iron with it, because the excess calcium binds with the iron.
In my case, the mm does not cloud, because having vinyl, I have a very low calcium level to begin with.
What was your Calcium level to begin with?
Be sure to run the filter continuously for 48 hrs or more after treatment. Re: back flush...I have a sand filter and usually only have to backwash once after a treatment at 25% above clean pressure, but I don't get the cloudiness, meaning I'm not over-saturated on calcium, I suspect.
So I can't reliably estimate how often you might have to back flush, but I would hope its not crazy The bright side is that this process should also reduce excess calcium as well.
Post back and let me know your starting Calcium level and how long it takes to clear. That would help me know whether or not I should suggest this method for other people with DE filters and higher Calcium levels.
For me, its been way easier than AA PLUS sequestrant, that will still cloud anyway, because you don't have long periods of low chlorine, the fight to get back up, or the risk of going green then shocking and starting the whole cycle over again.
And I would expect at maintenance doses you would not likely as as long a clody period or as much...but again suspect that depends on the calcium.
I hope this works out for you even if you're having temporary déjà vue
In my case, the mm does not cloud, because having vinyl, I have a very low calcium level to begin with.
What was your Calcium level to begin with?
Be sure to run the filter continuously for 48 hrs or more after treatment. Re: back flush...I have a sand filter and usually only have to backwash once after a treatment at 25% above clean pressure, but I don't get the cloudiness, meaning I'm not over-saturated on calcium, I suspect.
So I can't reliably estimate how often you might have to back flush, but I would hope its not crazy
The bright side is that this process should also reduce excess calcium as well.Post back and let me know your starting Calcium level and how long it takes to clear. That would help me know whether or not I should suggest this method for other people with DE filters and higher Calcium levels.
For me, its been way easier than AA PLUS sequestrant, that will still cloud anyway, because you don't have long periods of low chlorine, the fight to get back up, or the risk of going green then shocking and starting the whole cycle over again.
And I would expect at maintenance doses you would not likely as as long a clody period or as much...but again suspect that depends on the calcium.
I hope this works out for you even if you're having temporary déjà vue
Hi again. I just checked the sponge test directions again and in this case you need to filter 3 days, not two (two is for regular dose)
So, check the pool this morning and the water has cleared and there is a white powdery substance all over the bottom. I t looks like DE, but I don't think that's possible, so I concluded that it must be the crystallized iron. I vacuumed it up and again regenerated the filter. In ally research on this issue I never read anything about this powdery substance. I don't know what my calcium is , but I do have a vinyl liner. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Any thoughts?
My guess would be the crystals the mfg refers to, since you clouded.
I don't know what all you've used in your pool over time, or how you chlorinate or test...so its hard to dx Did you ever use floc before? That makes things drop to the bottom like that, but I would expect it would also clog up your grids.
Do you have one of the recommended test kits, Taylor k2006 or TFT-100? ( TFTestkits.net )
If so, it would be good to know your calcium level, but regardless it will now probably have lowered.
I don't know what all you've used in your pool over time, or how you chlorinate or test...so its hard to dx
Did you ever use floc before? That makes things drop to the bottom like that, but I would expect it would also clog up your grids.Do you have one of the recommended test kits, Taylor k2006 or TFT-100? ( TFTestkits.net )
If so, it would be good to know your calcium level, but regardless it will now probably have lowered.