Now I am putting my nose to work..

[SPP]

Hi guys,

Been a long time. Merry X-mas belated and a good new year to you all.

I just want to report on what I have learned so far since August after I managed to get best water clearity ever.

The pool have been busy with divers since October to December. About 3/4 days a week with up to 6 divers.
I been getting rainy season starting since early October. I practicaly been hands off the pool and leave everythig to my pool boy due to work.

About early early October I have told my pool boy to raise the FC level from 2.0 - 2.5 to 3.0 - 3.5 due to the increased bather load and lots of rain. CYA last reading in Agust was 25+-. In fact according to the log book the pool boy without my permission was raising the FC to 4.5 up to 7PPM in order to bring back maximum clearity middle of November. I did not swim in the pool entire September, October and early November. I swam twice late November and early December only.

No CC was ever recorded but I was unhappy at the water clearity early December to Christmas. However pool was so busy with divers and the rain was getting worse, nearly every day with heavy rain. I was mainly out of town then.

Anyhow I would like to report the summary :
Note : The ionizer use has been suspended since October. The anode/catahode are too expesive now. I was asked to pay US$275 for just a pair.. no way dude...

01. With 4-5 FC and water being cloudy, while no CC can be read wit TF test kit, my nose can smell the chlorine in the uncomfortable sense. I can also feel it harsh on my hair. My logbook showed that with very clear water ( less visible bad stuff that is ) at 4 - 5 FC chlorine smell can hardly be smelled.

02. For the past two weeks my Hayward Catridge filter has been trapping greenish dirt, so it must be algea. Usually its the 1 micron Slime Bag that always gets the greenish dirt. So my cloudy water is algae bloom on the way.

03. I recalled my pool when the water was very mildy cloudy, and zero CC, I could smell some chlorine even at 3.5 FC. This doesn't happen when water is maximum clearity.

I just bomb the pool since 26th Dec 12PM with up to 19ppm. I also discovered yesterday that my CYA has dropped to lower than 20, how low I can't tell. The log book showed that for almost two weeks my pool daily FC lost was high, +2PPM region. Compared to 0.5 and 1 PPM maximum in non rainy days and very clear water. Usually 0.5 PPM when divers use the pool and 0.5 PPM when rain comes, so 1 PPM was maxed wth sunlight loss included, but then it was at 25PPM CYA as per August.

This morning the water is already close to 90+% of its top clearity after 90 hours of both pump running and bombing at average 14 PPM FC ( 19 to 10 PPM swing ). At 05:45 AM today with 8.5 PPM FC and CC at 0.5PPM ( less actually ) , the chlorine smel was mild and not the intrusive kind as when water was cloudy and at 4-5 PPM FC with zero CC. 6 hours per turnover is what I get with both pumps running.

I think I will start trusting my nose more and how my body smell and feel after a dip in less than well balanced chlorine level in the pool , it seems that I can smell FC being consumed but while not yet being registered as CC. It has a disctinct uncomfortable chlorine smell.

The frequent rain been throwing me off. Since 26 Dec, some nights I loose 2 ppm FC and today I loose 5PPM FC between 6PM ( dark already ) yesterday to 05:45 AM this morning. The CYA being lower than previous 25PPM also seems to confuse me on the FC loss due to sunlight and whatever is loss fighting the cloudy water.

I will give up the use on the silver & copper ionizer, its effect its not worth the dollar spent compared to the ozone I have. My ozone system is so much cheaper and more effective.

Extensive rain is a bigger disaster compared to heavy divers load. Heay rain and heavy divers load is a REAL disaster. Since my pool gets a bit of dirt run off from the side building during rain ( sunshade water drain not too good during heavy rain ) and the sunshade accumulate so much dust/ pollen and what ever baddies too.

I am limiting the use of the pool to 4 days a week only in this rainy season, its the west monsoon now.
I am also trying to set up a schedule where 3 weeks of use and 1 week of rest for the pool per month during this rainy season, so that the 4th week I can bomb my pool. This way I can maintain peak clarity at all times.
My log book showed that water clearity started to fall a bit ( perhaps obvious is a better word ) after 60 days of maintenance profile suitable for dry season, if used in the current wet season even with extended pump running time.

I think the rain have brought to my pool some chlorine resistant baby algae more than ever. Strong winds in the rainy season may also have contaminate the pool with baddies I don't usually get. Sad... .

The good news is that with both pumps running and since the installation of the ozone, I can get back water clearity from a cloudy situation ( water visibility less than 9 feet ) within 90 hrs/ 4 days. This is so much better than before the ozone installation where 1 full week is what I need with both pumps running to clear cloudy situation but still I can't never get that final very sparkling water.

It seems in the topics like my country, the bather load profile and the amount of pollution I have in my area, water clearity and especially my nose can be the best indicator as far as bad things in the water "coming out".
I am getting to know my pool better each day now, more so for rainy season maintenance profile which I never documented properly prevously. Thanks to all of you seniors and members at TF.

Once again, have a great New Year to everyone... :-D


Regards,
SPP

 

[JasonLion]

It is great to hear your detailed story like this!

With CYA below 20, you may want to be careful about using such high FC levels. Depending on just how low the CYA has gone, you might be getting into the range of metal corrosion risk. You would have more consistent results with a measurable CYA level, and that would also reduce your FC loss to sunlight.

It sounds like the CC being created is in one of the more volatile forms. It must be coming out of the water fairly quickly for you to be able to smell it in the air without being able to measure it in the water.

Keeping track of overnight FC loss might provide additional information, though I don't know if it is worth the effort in normal operation. It sounds like getting the clearest water possible requires algae kill rates much faster than the rate required to simply kill the algae. That makes sense, given that the pool is constantly being re-contaminated. Even algae reproductions rates well below viable levels will still mean significantly longer filtering times to get the water back to clear. Overnight FC loss might give you a way to indirectly measure algae kill rates.

If you want to experiment with other approaches to killing algae faster, you might want to look into lowering your phosphate levels. Algae can't grow hardly at all at very low phosphate levels. This isn't normally worth bothering with, but given your heavy bather load and desire for extremely clear water it might help, depending on the cost of phosphate remover in your part of the world and how much phosphate is in your fill water.

 

[SPP]

Hello Jason,

Yes, I too am worried about high FC with low CYA level. I assumed the CYA was still at 25ppm like in August and because CYA should not get consumed. 19ppm was a mistake. I told my pool boy to hit 13PPM but it read slow after 4 hours (only 9ppm ) and I told to add some more bleach, that's when it hit 19ppm for a while. My pool deep end and plumbing design is bad for proper circulation, many dead spot. I use the trolley pump with flexible hose to suck and discharge at different position every few hours. Still proper chlorine distribution is slow.

Big rain will fill up my balancing tank and force water in drain mode when a certain volume is exceeded, this is where I think I got the CYA loss and I also failed to test the CYA on a monthly basis after August. I am raising CYA to 25 again with tri-chlor, no one sell CYA stand alone addetive here. This will take time.

I must first get a test kit for phospate. I even finished my TF kit FAS/DPD which I ordered as a 1 year supply in just within 4 months.... ha ha ha. Test kit and all other uncommon chemicals for pool is so hard to get in this country.

I really hate the rain, today I loose again like 5ppm between 6AM to 6PM again due to heavy rain and whatever loss to sunlight. I have 9.5ppm at 6pm today and let see what happens tomorrow. I know that I am to expect some percentage loss and not 1-2 ppm if total FC is this high but as per my August log book when I first use the TF kit upon its arrival have showed ( no rain at all ) 2 ppm loss is the norm even when bombing at 12 PPM, given that this is with 25PPM cya when water is already clear.

So its just a wild guess for FC loss due to low CYA now, since less than 20 PPM for now could be only 5PPM. The black dot is still highly visible at max fill on the test tube.

I am using 12PPM FC as target as per your Pool Calculator.

I shall report after new year the result. I am going off for new year in the mountain. I keep track of the pool with my pool boy via phone. If there is one night that FC stays or consumed less than 1 ppm, I shall stop the bombing. I must open the pool for the divers latest 5th January 2009. The water is clear but experienced showed that it could be misleading unless I can confirm no FC loss overnight, its the best method. If all good and FC at 3PPM or so, it will be the job of my nose later... :-D :-D

Thanks Jason.

 

[SPP]

Hello Jason,

Finally I am sure the baddies are gone.
Today 2nd Jan 2009 at 06:30AM I am still reading 6PPM FC.
30th Dec 2008 at 05:45Am it was 8.5PPM FC.
So the last 3 days with rain everday, I lost only less than 1 PPM per 24 hours and less than 0.5PPM FC overnight. The water has turned sparkling blue yesterday...yipeee !!!!

So the conclusion so far is :

01. The baddies ( seen as cloudy ) consume more chlorine than rain or sunlight loss due to lower CYA, for my case that is.
02. From cloudy to very clear water is where the chlorine loss is highest
03. Clear water itself still has baddies eating chlorine away.
03. Sparkling blue is last indication of final stage where chlorine loss is lowest
04. Yesterday 1st Jan 2009 at 5PM and at 6.5PPM FC, I jumped in the pool for visibility check for 3 minutes with my divemask and I am already getting that final sparkle and visibility I aimed for. Chlorine smell is very low in water, but when I purposely dry my body in air I can smell that chlorine ( as expected ).Hair does not get harsh feeling though.

05. I recalled a 3.5PPM FC at 25PPM CYA with sparkling blue water in August water feel so good and almost no smell to my body after I dry it in air. Hardly no smell at all if I scoop water of the pool and smell it with my nose.

You know, I recall public pools changing room in my city. You can smell strong chlorine when you go into them to shower.

You quoted :
It sounds like the CC being created is in one of the more volatile forms. It must be coming out of the water fairly quickly for you to be able to smell it in the air without being able to measure it in the water.

I am sure you are right. I must use my nose more to trace this kind of CC. I have always been under the assumption that CC reading is everything.

Final stage for this pool is to dive with a tootbrush in one hand a vacuum hose on the other hand, elbow grease to remove the fine dust that vacuum alone can't suck from the tiles grout. I have not done it in a long time.

That's all the report today. When the pool hits 3.5PPM FC, I shall update again.


Cheers,
SPP

 

[SPP]

13 feet deep end taken 7:40AM 2nd Jan 2009

 

[launboy]

Wow, you have strict clarity standards, but it definitely pays off! That water is Beautiful! It's so clear and sparkly.

If you don't mind, could you snap a pic of your entire pool? It looks interesting based on the closeups I've seen.

Glad you have everything back balanced again,
Adam

 

[JasonLion]

Indoor public pools typically don't have any CYA and tend to have fairly high FC levels. When you get out of the pool you body is producing sweat at some slow rate. The sweat reacts with the FC, and because of the low CYA level the products are mostly volatile and smelly CC. When the CYA level is higher, say 15 or higher, the reaction with sweat happens significantly more slowly and much less of the CC is produced in the volatile smelly form.

 

[SPP]

Hello Adam,

Once I get maximum water clearity, it is addictive. The same as one having a sport car and polish it up real nice, its pleasing to the eye. I am a diver so I like using my mask when I inspect my pool clearity. Dive mask has good lens, swimming eye googles are plastic it doesn't give glass quality, so I am sensitive to water clearity.
In some place where I dive, water visibility is easy 150 feet horizontal, it does make me sort of jelous that mother nature can do that and while we have a sort of "controlled" environment in our pool, yet it takes practice,hard work and patience to get such visibility.

This is this morning shot. The sun ray is making the photo a bit bright on some part. I purposely open up 20% ( maximum opening ) of the sunshade to get direct sunlight to remove the high FC level and ease to remove whatever CC produced.

I must say that BBB method is Da Best. FC get raised so fast. No cloudiness from whatever impurities like Cal-Hypo or slow dissolving of Tri or Di Chlor. Powerful pumps also a must, hence the trolley pump is a must have for me. If I knew better last time, I would have bought 2 of 3/4HP pumps on trolley and not a single 1.5HP.
Circulation is very important and fine filtration too. No matter how clear is my water, the 1 micron slime bag always gets greenish dirt, its just slower getting dirty if water is very clear.

Here is the photo you requested. With white tiles and good water clearity, the 4 feet section looks like 2 feet.
Hope you like it... :-D


Jason,
I am not loosing any FC today. Early morning started with 6ppm FC and at 18:45 today it is still 6ppm FC.
My pool boy spent 3 hours with dive tank scrubing the tile grout with toothbruh and vacuum. My kids swam with a friend, so total 3 person, spent 1 hour. Sunlight was great and hot. After I tested CYA on 27th Dec 2009 which was less than 20PPM, I added total of 6 of Tri-Chlor ( I think its is Tri-Chlor and not Di-Chlor, can't remember the type when it was purchased ) tablet in stages. Have not tested CYA yet after that.

The pump only stopped at 21:35pm today. So both pumps been running mid day 26th Dec 08, logged as starting time since this is when the high FC level started. I know that by mid day 1st Jan 09 I have got maximum clearity and FC consumption stable. So it took me approx 144 hours ( 6 days ) of two pumps run time. This is about 144/6 hours per turnover or 24 total water volume turnover.

Pool properties : 1 liter 12% bleach raise 1PPM FC normally. 1 tablet raise 1PPM FC normally and will dissolved in like 24 hours depending where I put it. Placement really matters for tablet. In this clean up, I place 2 in balancing tank and total of 4 in the Slime Bag where water flow is direct and strong.

26 Dec 08 13 liter 13:15PM + 6 liters 20:30PM, read 19-20PPM at 23:00 PM

27 Dec 08 read 16PPM at 06:15AM, add 2 tablets at 07:45AM, add 2 liter acid, read 13 PPM at 18:25PM, RAIN

28 Dec 08 read 12PPM at 06:20AM, read 10PPM at 18:10PM, add 4 liters at 19:10PM, read 14PPM at 22:25PM

29 Dec 08 read 12PPM at 06:50AM, add 4 tablets at 07:00AM, read 13.5PPM at 17:45PM. HEAVY RAIN

30 Dec 08 read 8.5PPM FC and CC 0.5PPM at 05:45AM, add 5 liters at 07:00AM, read 9.5PPM at 18:20PM. RAIN

31 Dec 08 read 9ppm at 06:35AM, read 8ppm at 18:15PM

1st jan 09 RAIN, read 7ppm at 06:35AM, read 6,5PPM at 17:45AM

2nd Jan 09 read 6PPM at 6:00 AM, read 6PPM at 18:45 PM. One diver 3 hours cleaning pool, 3 kids swimming for 1 hour in the afternoon. Sun is hot !!

The public pool I speak of is open air type. I think the CC or whatever the chlorine smell may come from is high and thus the swimmers get lots of them on their bodies and when they take a bath, the changing room gets smell of chlorine. This is possible right ?

How does a public pool usually lower its FC level fast after shocking ? I know there is a chemical to lower chlorine level, I once bought it to test but not for my pool. Can't remember the name now though. I am just thinking, time is money in public pool. A week lost will be quite sad isn't ?

Regards,
SPP

 

[JasonLion]

Sodium thiosulfate will eliminate chlorine very quickly. Public pools typically either use non-chlorine oxidizers to shock or use sodium thiosulfate to reduce the chlorine level after shocking back to normal levels.

CC in the pool can cause a smell that stays on your body after you get out of the pool (till you shower). However, if you only smell the smell after getting out, then sweat reacting to residual chlorine in the water on your body is the most likely source.

 

[SPP]

Hah.... I got some more nose work benefit.

FC 2.5 PPM and the pool was abused plus some rain. I can actually smell "chlorine" immediately after the divers stepped out.
Let the pump run and added 1 liter to raise 1ppm, the smell is gone some hours later. I think I smelled the FC doing work killing all the contaminants, just like what you seniors described. No CC at all regisitered.

As of few days ago I am trying new method to prevent possible clouding, even very mild one.

If more than 3 divers use the pool, run the pump non stop till next day, so its 24 hours instead of usual 12-14 hours with no bather load. If on top of divers came heavy rain, run the pump on trolley 9PM to 6AM along with main pump.
If bather load more than 5 divers, I run main pump 24 hours and trolley pump 9PM to 6AM, rain or no rain.

If rain hard only and total duration for the rain is more than 3 hours, I run main pump 24 hours.
I need main pump because the ozone is linked to it.

I been thinking, if I ever have a mild clouding, it is usually a bit too late and thicker clouding will occur ventually. So in the end I have to hit hard with 12PPM FC. In the last mild clouding in December, my pool boy tried "mild" shocking to 5-6 PPM FC even when there is no CC at all, it was proven useless due to the continuos re-contemination from divers and rain.

If this method works and it has been so far these few days with heavy extended rain and 5+ divers, in the end I save time and frustration. Needing to hit high at 12FC PPM and have both pump running non stop for at least 5 days and close the pool for a week per 60 days period, not to mention frustration seeing the pool cloudy on the last two weeks or so...actually cost me more damage in $$ and "personal feeling"... . I been telling everyone that BBB works like a charm and I have to defend that...

Pool clouding to me its like ni-cad battery power curve....good good good...then collapse fast without warning.
If ever my water turn green...I will kill myself. This have never happened after I learned from TP and knew BBB better.

I shall update and see how things are Feb 28 ,2008. .....60 days approx time span from the day I got the pool as "clean" and ready for action.

Yesterday I just received my TF chlorine test kit re-fill. What I ordered plus the extra kit which arrived in August 2008 was supposed to last a year for FAS/DPD kit set, only lasted 5+ months...dang, my pool is so thirsty for testing.

I just got :

6 of R-0003
12 of R-0871
4 of R-0870
4 of CYA reagent

Half of these will be for my friend. Should last 6 months. This way I will get fresh supplies all the time. I keep the unused spare ones in the fridge and once out of fridge, it stay out for use. Our test is 6AM and 6PM daily for non shocking session and for my pool extra 1 test at least if there is heavy rain and divers in the pool. I estimate landed cost for chemical test kit for my pool is about US$300 a year maximum, including US$70-80 EMS postage twice a year and this already include 1 set "refreshed" complete test kit a year. I hope the other test kits aside from FAS/DPD and CYA, can have a 1 year shelf life at 28 degrees Celcius. Less than US$1 a day for testing cost, its a great deal for such accuracy of the test.

The R-003 I ordered a bit more, I can do with 2.5 bottles a year I think but I tried finding in Singapore and can't located them. The TF test kit seems so precious and I can't live without them.

Later guys......

IYA

 

[SPP]

Dang, I just talked to my pool boy. I had 4 of R-0870 in August and today only 1 left.
That means I need 6 of R-870 per 10 months and that will be at least 7 a year.