Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    For me, a solar cover provides enough added heat, but the wife tells a different story. My expected use would be mostly limited to weekends, turning it on Saturday morning to get a several degree lift for the weekend, and I suppose more swimming days in September. It is about 105 foot run from the meter to the pool, I got an estimate last year for $700 for the gas line and heater/plumbing install, but delayed for various reasons.

    Based on researching these forums, Raypak is far and away the winner (though Amazon reviews tell a rather different story), so I am strongly leaning towards this one:

    Raypak 009219 Digital Natural Gas 399,000 BTU Pool Heater



    Questions:

    In terms of plumbing is there any configuration I should ask for from the installer in particular? Should I have it set up so I can bypass the heater if I'd like?

    In the approximate location where I would like to have the heater, it would be somewhat under a tree where there is about 7 feet clearance from the ground. The heater looks to be 40 inches so that should give me enough for the required 3 foot clearance I see in the manual. Any concerns with this proximity?

    For my use and pool size, any thoughts that this may not be the best choice for heat?

    Thanks!
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Patrick_B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Midland TX
    Posts
    15,001

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Don't listen to Amazon reviews. Those in the know choose Raypak and Pentair. Usually in that order. I have a Raypak heater and love it. By all means, get a bypass if you like. It's a great option. Some disagree but I'm in the other camp. I like options and extras and it's handy sometimes. If you have a chemical upset, or need to repair the heater, it's a nice feature.
    TFP Moderator
    Essential Links:
    ABC's Of Pool Chemistry, Test Kits, SLAM Your Pool
    28K Gal IG FreeForm, CLI Quartz, Pentair 36"SF & VS Pump, Dolphin M5, Rheem

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Pool Tool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Western Chicago Area, IL
    Posts
    754

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Pauls - I was in your boat and area! I just installed the same heater, though a propane unit and love it. With our nice cool summer thus far it has been great. Last weekend I turned it on and went from 75 - 88 in about 5 hours. Hearing people 'complain' about it being too warm was kind of nice actually. Our pool is about the same size so you should see similar results.

    I opted for a bypass because why not?? Other than another valve (or three) and a few more joints to glue it is a nice option to have just in case. I installed the unit myself, which took me about 6 hours on a Saturday. Directions were very straight forward and easy to follow. A pro should take much less time.

    One thing that I didn't consider much was the noise of the unit. I am very pleased with the Raypak - very quiet. Granted I got the standard version so no blower or anything, but much quieter than my old Laars unit. It is still early for me, but hands down I would not change a thing at this point. Which reminds me, I need to update my sig.

    Good luck and I pretty confident you won't be disappointed with a Raypak.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

  4. Back To Top    #4
    BoDarville's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    DFW, Texas
    Posts
    3,840

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Adding a heater bypass is what I would call a nice-to-have item - not a hardcore requirement. It does come in handy when you are breaking in a new plaster surface, although this use case would not apply in your case.

    Here are some use cases where a heater bypass would be handy in your situation:
    1. You would like the heater to be isolated so it can be serviced more easily.
    2. Your pump flow rates exceeds the max flow rate for the heater. This should be a rare circumstance as you would need a grossly over-sized pump to exceed the heater's max flow rate.
    3. The only other pertinent use case I can think of is bypassing the heater when your chemistry is waaaay out of balance, which will hopefully never come up, but can be handy if you actually need it.


    The trade-off is whenever you add additional valves to your pluming, it introduces another potential leak point and does complicate the plumbing setup slightly. Just need to weigh this against the added flexibility that a bypass setup provides.
    Gold Supporter, TFP Lifetime Supporter, 26,680 gal Plaster IGP 3.5 - 10' depth / Attached Waterfall Spa, Manually Chlorinated, Triton Sand Filter, 1.5 HP * 1.1 SF = 1.65 SFHP 1-speed Pentair WhisperFlo WF-26 Pump, 400K BTU NG Teledyne Laars Series One Heater, Polaris 360, Test Kit Comparison, Chlorine/CYA Chart, SLAMing Your Pool, OCLT
    A good test kit is an investment, not an expense.

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    I was thinking of getting a timer so I don't have to manually turn my pump on and off each day, but do I need to make any considerations for this heater? What are its electrical needs?
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Pool Tool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Western Chicago Area, IL
    Posts
    754

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    A timer is definitely convenient and worth the expense. There are several models, some of which have a separate timer (run in series) to shut off the heater 20 mins or so before the pump. Some heaters specify this cool down time while others just use a fireman's switch to keep the heater from operating if the pump is off.

    All heaters will have a flow/pressure switch that will shut down the unit if the pump turns off, but think of that more as a safety than a primary control feature. The electrical load of the heaters are pretty small and can easily be handled by the timer. Raypak load is 4 amps @ 120V & 2 amps @ 240V. Most heaters are set up for either 240 or 120 voltage, whichever you have available at the pad now. Note - the raypak does not like 208V.

    I am sure someone will be around soon with a model number or link to a good one. Here is one i found after a quick search and what I would consider higher end.

    Intermatic Timer, Swim Pool T12404R | Zoro.com
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    I'm thinking that I will only use the timer on the pump since the heater will not be used on a daily basis.

    Does the Raypak have a plug or does it need to be hard wired? My set up is pretty simple with just two outlets at 120v, one occupied by the pump and the other the light. Given the low loads of the light and heater, I may have to share that outlet, though I don't use the light all that often so would rarely have a need for both at the same time.
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Pool Tool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Western Chicago Area, IL
    Posts
    754

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    The heater must be hardwired - there is no cord on the heater. You could pull the wires from the switch powering the pump (unless it's directly on the pump) to the heater, but you would need to have the heater wired at all times which is why adding it to the timer is convenient.

    I guess one could physically wire an appliance power cord into the heater like this. But I have no idea whether that is legal. Heater still needs to be bonded to the other equipment as well.
    Shop InSinkErator 3-ft 0-Prong Black Garbage Disposal Appliance Power Cord at Lowes.com

    Someone else who understands NEC might be able to list a few options for you. I would add the timer and run power via that even if you only use the heater sparingly.
    16' x 32' (21100 gal), vinyl, 1.5 hp Hayward SuperPump,
    Tagelus TA60/60D Sand Filter, Raypak 399K Digital Heater, TF-100

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    It will need to be hard wired and most installations have it wired to the pump circuit so it can not turn on unless the pump is running. It also needs to be bonded to the pool system. Are you installing this or hiring someone? A heater is not something that should be incorporated into a system without following installation and code requirements.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
    Hayward Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG, Jandy LXi 400k BTU NG heater, 350 sq.ft. of Sun Star solar panels, TF-100 Test Kit, Dolphin s300i Cleaner
    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    My suggestion would be to look into getting the cupro-nickel heat exchanger option. It is more durable but it is slightly less efficient because of the material copper vs cupro-nickel. As for the by-pass I didn't put one on. Since I installed the heater myself I didn't want to spend more time putting one on especially if it was for something I would probably never need to use.

    http://www.inyopools.com/Products/04000013060745.htm

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    re: electrical

    My pump is also a plug in, not hard wired.

    If I am understanding, it sounds like the heater could be either: a) directly wired to the pump's circuits or b) directly wired to a timer (of which I would need a plug in type). Is that correct? I would lean towards option A if those are my choices.

    Bonding - I've read about bonding on this board over the years, and recently re-read some past threads on the topic, though I am still a little fuzzy on the details. Bottom line, I have never seen evidence of bonding on my pool and I feel like I should have over the few years I've lived here if it is in fact in place. My electric and pump filter system is a bit of distance from the pool, maybe 12 feet if that makes a difference??

    I will need a gas line run of about 100 feet so am planning to have this person do the full installation - gas line and heater. I had not contemplated the electrical considerations however, so just trying to get my head wrapped around everything before I go through details with the installer.

    Songebob - thanks will look into the cupro nickel version of this heater.
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    I didn't catch that this is an above ground pool, but here is a thread that explains bonding for above ground pools, Bonding an above ground pool.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
    Hayward Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG, Jandy LXi 400k BTU NG heater, 350 sq.ft. of Sun Star solar panels, TF-100 Test Kit, Dolphin s300i Cleaner
    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

  13. Back To Top    #13

    In the Industry

    ps0303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    3,437

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Don't add a cord to the heater. This unit is not designed this way so don't so it.

    Add a pump timer and then wire the heater just like the pump to it. You can still turn the heater on thru the on/off switch to operate it. A heater connected thru the time is very common especially considering in order to use the heater the pump has to be running anyway.

    When I lived up north, above ground pools weren't bonded like the in-ground ones are.

    You DON'T need the cupro nickel heat exchanger. For the amount of use a pool gets up north and plus it's not running 24/7, it's a waste of your money. Spend that on the timer for the pump. BTW, if you look at many of my comments, I never suggest a cupro nickel heat exchanger.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Thanks everyone, things are making more sense now. I googled and found that bonding is not required for my AGP since there is no equipment within 5 feet of it, so that explains why I've not seen.

    I am totally unfamiliar with timers (except the ones I use for my Christmas lights!) so am looking for some guidance - my pump says 9.8 amps on the label and is a typical plug. Is there a timer out there that will accept the plug from my pump and also the hard wiring for the heater? When I look at these intermatic timers online they do not seem to indicate if they accept plugs in addition to hard wiring. Or, are they all hard wiring only?

    Thanks again for the help!
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  15. Back To Top    #15

    TFP Guide

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    western NY
    Posts
    1,557

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls234 View Post
    Thanks everyone, things are making more sense now. I googled and found that bonding is not required for my AGP since there is no equipment within 5 feet of it, so that explains why I've not seen.
    This is not entirely true. The NEC has recommendations for bonding above ground pools as well. The only pools that are not required to have a bonding grid/loop/system are pools that meet the status of temporary or portable. You may be one of the lucky few that does not have voltage gradients big enough to cause you problems. Your area inspectors may not require a bond system for your application, but it does not mean voltage gradients don't exist.
    For example...If I unhook my bond from the water I can get almost 1 volt of difference between the earth and the water. 2 house up the neighbors pool will barely get .1 volts. As such he never put a bond on his. Mine needs one as the kids always felt the tingle when they touched the water from outside the pool.
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

  16. Back To Top    #16
    wjr75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    816

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    I have that heater and it is great. I also paid the extra 150 bucks for the cupro nickel exchanger. It heats my pool similar in size at about 2deg per hour. It heats our 900 gallon hot tub on demand from 80deg to 100deg in about 35-40 minutes. I have the isolation valves on both the inlet and outlet since I had to replace the heater one year at start up. I was able to run the pumps without the heater in place. I also have a valve on the bypass pipe and I actually keep it open slightly when running the pool. It seems my hot tub will heat up faster for some reason verse all the water flowing through the heat exchanger.
    Inground 22k gallon gunite 15x31 main pool, 15x7 wading pool/sunning deck, hot tub/with overflow (9' octagon with limestone top) & slide NSWG, Aqua Blue Pebble Sheen
    Filter dual cartridge Sta-rite 450sq/ft, TF-100 Test Kit
    Heater Raypak 2100 400k btu cupro-nickel exchanger
    Auto pool cover, Polaris 280 auto pool cleaner, Jandy AqualinkRS8 Remote Control System

  17. Back To Top    #17

    In the Industry

    ps0303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    3,437

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls234 View Post
    Thanks everyone, things are making more sense now. I googled and found that bonding is not required for my AGP since there is no equipment within 5 feet of it, so that explains why I've not seen.

    I am totally unfamiliar with timers (except the ones I use for my Christmas lights!) so am looking for some guidance - my pump says 9.8 amps on the label and is a typical plug. Is there a timer out there that will accept the plug from my pump and also the hard wiring for the heater? When I look at these intermatic timers online they do not seem to indicate if they accept plugs in addition to hard wiring. Or, are they all hard wiring only?

    Thanks again for the help!
    It's not hard to add a receptacle wired into the timer so you can plug your pump into it. Then you can also hard wire the heater into it as well. Connect the receptacle wires to the correct terminals on the timer and also connect the heater to those same terminals. Timer kicks on, the receptacle gets power and so does the heater.
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Paul, that makes good sense, so as long as I get a timer that is rated for outdoor use and for at least the 10 amp (9.8 actually) pump I should be good?

    Danpik - thanks for you contributions around the bonding issue over the years, I spent a lot of time reading old threads. One clarification, the NEC code I read indicated that bonding is required for all equipment within 5 feet of an AGP, thus my interpretation would be that since my equipment is more like 8-10 feet from the wall, then bonding is not required (which is not to suggest it isn't a good idea!). Am I interpreting that correctly?
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    334

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Can anyone help me with picking out a timer? I can't tell the relevant differences between the various timers and what I would need to suit my purposes. The gas guy doing my install said that he would just wire a plug in to the heater and use a receptacle, which would be the easiest, but is contrary to advice given in this thread (I did not have the knowledge to tell him why I thought this was wrong) so perhaps I'll just get the timer and have that waiting for him.

    In sum, I am looking for a timer to run my pump (9.8 amps) and soon to be installed heater (4 amps). My current electrical set up is only a two outlet receptacle.

    Would this do the job? Do they make a timer that could plug into my receptacle?

    Intermatic T101R 120-Volt SPST 24 Hour Mechanical Time Switch with Outdoor Case - Wall Timer Switches - Amazon.com
    Dedicated TFPer since 2012 with recommended test kit
    Above ground, 30 foot round pool, 21,000 gallons
    Hayward 150 sq foot cartridge filter, 1HP Waterway pump
    Raypak 400K BTU NG Heater!
    Installed in 2006? (just a guess, pool came with house I purchased in June 2012)

  20. Back To Top    #20

    TFP Guide

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    western NY
    Posts
    1,557

    Re: A few questions before I splurge on this heater....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls234 View Post
    the NEC code I read indicated that bonding is required for all equipment within 5 feet of an AGP, thus my interpretation would be that since my equipment is more like 8-10 feet from the wall, then bonding is not required (which is not to suggest it isn't a good idea!). Am I interpreting that correctly?
    The thing to keep in mind is the NEC is the min code requirements. Somewhere along the way a distance from the pool had to be established for this rule. I am pretty sure there was a lot of debate on this and the research from empirical data showed that at that distance the issue probably was small enough that it was set at that distance. This is all about the ability to touch two different voltage gradients at the same time. In this case, the body of water, which can hold a very large voltage load, and the pump housing which can not only hold its own voltage load but is also connected to the system grounding circuit. Bonding at that distance is not required but is also allowed if you feel compelled to do so.
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •