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Thread: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

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    Unhappy 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Brand new to InGround pool. 8' deep end, 3' shallow end. Have less than 1ft in shallow end. Debris, and green. Should we pump out most of remaining water to get the debris out, add water so pump runs then add shock? Or add shock to existing water, so we can see better to get the debris out best we can, then fill?

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Welcome to TFP.

    You have a vinyl liner so you don't want to drain you whole pool. You only want to drain to where there is still one ft in the shallow end to prevent the liner from shifting. It looks like that it where you are at right now.

    We don't add shock to our pools here. We do a process called a SLAM using bleach.


    Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain


    You can use a large leaf net/ rake to scoop the debris out.

    Do you have a recommended test kit? You will need one to follow the SLAM process. There is a link to the TF 100 in my signature.

    I recommend reading these in Pool School

    Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

    Pool School - Recommended Levels

    We also use pool math for calculations on what to add and how much.

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html
    Lisa
    Intex AG vinyl 15' x 48" 4,300 gallons due to skimmer install, Krystal Clear SF pump combo 2800 GPH, Krystal Clear SWG, Pool Blaster Max vacuum, Hayward thru the wall skimmer, TF 100 test kit with speed stir, K 1766 Taylor salt test, My SLAM Process

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    What Azgirl said, plus I would suggest also reading Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis This thread gives some of the behind the scenes reasoning for the instructions above
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
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    Smile Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Thanks so much. Added 6 gallons kmart bleach (no % on bottle) all they had on shelf, water definitely better. Once we have more than a foot of water in the pool, I'll test it.

    We have a couple of bags of shock left over I am going to throw those in, (I am thinking that should be fine w almost all new water) and run the sump pump w the hose in the deep end until we can get water delivered.

    I am very glad I found this site, it's awesome. I've been doing a lot of reading, the math will be tricky, numbers are not my friends! Thanks again.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Quote Originally Posted by netcow View Post
    the math will be tricky, numbers are not my friends!
    Numbers are my nemesis, too...
    Luckily all you have to do is click on the "PoolMath" tab at the top of the page... Fill in the relevant fields and the computer does the work.... easy-peasy!


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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Welcome to TFP! this place totally helped me recover a foreclosure swamp that you see in my profile pic youre in good hands here!

    You mentioned testing -- do you already have either the TFT 100 or Taylor K2006 recommended here? (See http://www.tftestkits.net )

    If you have the Taylor, order some more reagent 0871 now because you will rely heavily on it and use a lot during your SLAM -- you don't want to run out in the middle If you have the tft100, you're set.

    If you have a different test kit, you'll want to upgrade to one of the recommended ones because they're the only ones that can read a slam-level FC.

    Next question...can you post a pic? It helps us know just what you're dealing with, and its useful to see color-change to know if you're staying ahead of the algae.

    It would also be good to add you pool details and filter type etc. to your profile signature.

    Re pump out or slam -- this is a personal decision, but if the water is BLACK and you have a LOT of debris, you may find it slightly easier to rent and use (sparingly) a trash pump on the bottom while also filling with fresh water at the same time -- you never want LESS than a foot of water in the shallow end with vinyl, and if you have a high water table, then draining at all is riskier.

    In mine, I couldn't risk it (water table issues and unknown well capacity).

    Either way, its critical to manually remove all the heavy debris, even though you're working blind.
    For this part, you'll want a good heavy duty leaf rake.

    In addition, a "leaf gulper" will help save your back a bit -- you use ths with a garden hose and it helps "suck up" leaves: Amazon.com : Universal Leaf Gulper Pool Vacuum : Swimming Pool Pressure Cleaners : Patio, Lawn Garden

    In the beginning when you start filtering, you may want to keep the drain valve only a "bit" so you don't get clogs when the debris load is heavy. You will also want to kep a close eye on the filter and backwash whenever its 25% above clean pressure.

    I will post the large size pic of my on swamp recovery to give you an idea about progression and color change over a 12 day period. My recovery was in spring, so the temps were lower, which was in my favor-- you will be working against warmer temps where algae grows back faster. I was stuck at "brown" until I had my test kit and TFP help Then things moved fast daily.

    We chlorinated and filtered while removing debris for several days, btw, to knock down the putrid smell and get sanitizing, in all, we used about 60 gallons of liquid bleach, but before TFP had also used 12 bags of shock. You will see that we also hadn't gotten everything on the bottom either
    We were not really able to use the vacuum without clogging until the final two pics.

    Hope that helps you get a plan together -- I'll try to keep an eye on this one!

    One last note before you get deep into a slam:
    Post up your TA and PH levels even if you don't have a recc kit yet -- while TA usually doesn't matter (eg last thing you worry about), sometimes it can crash in a swamp and you want to make sure there's some TA there. PH in my case was down in the 6s, and you want to adjust that to 7.2 for slamming -- makes the chlorine work better. (Since you've already added chlorine, ph isn't accurate at slam levels...you'll need to test when the FC s below slam levels.)

    Lastly, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to get a strong sense of where your CYA is at -- that number really dictates what your SLAM level of FC will be. So test it a few times to get the hang of the test. Without the cya reading, you're winking in the dark -- the precision of the sustained kill zone is what turns a swamp sparkly and the "maintain" part is what does the work -- dosing frequently enough, and a few ppms higher than target so youre not spending time below slam value, is what keeps the algae on the run

    Cheers to clear!

    image.jpg
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    image.jpgOk, we got 6k gallons delivered earlier today, and have another 6k coming. My husband really wanted to shock it, so he got 2 5lb bottles of Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetirone because the pool store lady told him it would dissolve and was made for stagnant water. We have the Taylor 2006, a friend gave us a used one. (He's a pool guy). the water guy just got here, so I should be able to turn the pump on tonight. Once the water is done, I should be able to test and see where we are. I really hope those 10 lbs of the dichlor don't mess us up. I couldn't find a number on the filter, so I don't know which Hayward cartridge filter. I don't know how to fix the pic, it's upside down.
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Too much chlorine on a vinyl liner isn't a good thing, so don't put anymore shock or chlorine in until you know what you have it there. It can bleach out the color in the liner, or create other liner problems.
    18,000 gallon freeform inground plaster
    Jandy 1.5 hp pump & .75 hp booster pump
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Can you please post a set of test results, with special attention to the CYA level?

    Thanks!
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Can you please post a set of test results, with special attention to the CYA level?

    Thanks!

    Also, while you might need CYA, dichlor will add 6 ppm of CYA per pound/per 10000 gallons. So in your 30k pool, that 10 lbs of dichlor will add 60 ppm divided by 3 for 20 ppm.

    If you have NO CYA, that is fine. But if you have high CYA, that's a problem, and ironically will raise the FC you need to attain for your SLAM.

    The other problem about using dichlor is that CYA doesn't show up on reading til up to a week later -- so it will be hard to know what you really have once you add it -- and we need the number to base your FC for slam on, because that precision is what makes th kill rate effective (see FC:cya chart link in my signature).

    That's why I'd like you to test and report the cya level before he adds it. Or if he's already added it, test any way and we'll assume 20 more
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Yay! Finally. I was wrong about kit, it's a 2005. I tested, but I have questions. For the ch - it barely turned red, so how blue is blue? Is it just not red anymore? Cause that was a few drops. To see blue was like 26. Also, with CYA HOW MUCH NOT SEEING IS NOT SEEING THE BLACK DOT. Also, with the tc step, it was 3 or 5, soooo... 4? Also, box says not to put back in pool, but can I just dump on grass (weeds)?

    Results
    CYA - 60
    FC - 5
    TC - 5
    Ph - 7.2 (base demand test took 1 drop)
    TA - 11 (10?)
    CH - 104 (26 drops x 4, but see B vs R question above)

    The water looks much better. Just that lovely algae-inspired opaque jade color. Had to call the pool guy, tons of air in system.

    What's next?
    Last edited by netcow; 06-16-2015 at 11:33 AM. Reason: sorry about All Caps, didn't mean to yell
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Glad to hear of progress! Only step now is to chlorinate using liquid bleach to your FC level for the cya -- not to worry about the rest -- though please first confirm your FC reading since it seems low if hubby had added 10 lbs of shock. Or did e add it?

    Forgive my ignorance, but I thought it was only the Talor k2006 that could read high FC level.
    Can you confirm that you added powder for the chlorine test, it turned pink, and that you added/counted drops and divided by 2 if 10 mil or 5 if 25 mil to get tat FC reading?

    Also, dropping to 5 ppm, if accurate, would be way too low for SLAM level at a cya of 60 -- please review how to Slam and FC:ca links in my signature so we know you're on an effective path and ont lose ground! If hubby DID just add dichlor at 10 lbs...dose closer to the mustard shock level than regular, because you may well have more cya than you're reading.

    Slam stands for "shock and MAINTAIN" with the emphasis being on maintain You don't want to let algae grow back by having your FC below Slam level for long. Sometimes that means dosing a careful few ppms higher than target and dosing more frequently if possible.

    For TA, subtract the last drop if it doesn't "change" the color. I also think you meant 110, not 11, because if you're using 25 mil on TA sample, you multiply drops by 10.

    Lastly for cya test, here's a video to help you feel comfortable with your readings: Testing Cyanuric Acid with the TF-100 - YouTube

    Once you're sure about the FC reading and the cya reading, use the pool math calculator to figure out how much chlorine to add to get to your target.
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Thank you. No powder. It's a 2005 complete (high) DPD chlorine; DPD bromine. (1-10); pH w acid & base demand; total alkinity; calcium hardness; cyanuric acid is what the label on the front says. image.jpg. image.jpg. The FC test was: add two reagents, check color; CC WAS ADD A 3rd reagent check color; do math for CC. (TC - FC)

    He put the dichlor in, and after it had that **CHLORINE!** smell. But then we added another 6k gal of H20.

    I am going to watch the video, and then do the tests again. I have to stick w this kit, I will not be allowed to buy a new one when we have one that is "fine for a pool guy". lol.
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampwoman View Post
    Lastly for cya test, here's a video to help you feel comfortable with your readings: Testing Cyanuric Acid with the TF-100 - YouTube
    Thank you for this. It helped. And thank you everyone else who took their time to reply. I am a total newbie at this stuff, and full of much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands over it all. lol. Now that I am not trying to work at the same time, I am going to redo my tests and hit up pool math. HAHAHAHA. Wish me luck. I will probably come back and say " does this sound like what I should be doing?" to double check myself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Nice pictures. Gives me hope! Thank you for sharing.
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Ok. I watched a few cya test videos and re-did my tests. Now, my results are
    FC - 1.5
    TC - 3
    pH - 7.0 (is the drop from all the aerating it's getting because of the leak? I have a very violent cyclone in my pump box (or whatever the thing with the clear lid on the pump is called) and serious bubbling at the return between "bleedings")
    TA - 90
    CYA - 30
    Pool math says I should add 170 oz 6% bleach. Does this sound right? It says to add stuff for pH too, but won't the chlorine help with that? And/or, don't I want the algae fixed before I worry about other stuff? Thanks so much for your patience with all my questions!
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Net cow, I hate to be the bearer of bad news when you're making such nice progress, but you WILL NOT be able to follow TFP SLAM methods with that test kit because it only reads FC to 5 ppm, which isn't anywhere near the SLAM levels you need to maintain in a TFP slam. More n that in a bit, I'll try to get help.

    However, you could certainly add a dose but your 170 ounces does not sound like nearly enough -- with a CYA of 30, your slam mn. Is still 12 ppm, which in a 33k gallon pool would require more like 530 oz of 8% bleach. Please check the numbers you entered into the pool calculator to make sure you put in 33000 gallos. Also, correct no need to read / adjust other parameters like ph while in the middle of a slam.

    Now, back to the kit business:
    The FC test portion you need is the Taylor k2006 or the TFP100 (best value in reagents) or maybe TF50 since I think your Taylor kit has the other stuff. Those kits are avail fastest/cheapest at TFTestkits.net

    If you hang tight a spell, I will try to raise some help on whether its possible to get the FC portion separately and ergo cheaper. I think your 2005 kit as everything else you need.

    In the mean time, please review a few of the base concepts in the links in my signature so that you'll be we'll-versed to nail this puppy when we sort out the testing -- it's important to understand the FC:cya relationship, and that SLAM meant shock and MAINTAIN -- not letting the FC level drop blow your target level once you can test it correctly and are rolling.
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    You need to add the FAS-DPD Chlorine Test to your kit so that you have the equivalent of the recommended K-2006. All the other tests are the same between the K-2005 and the K-2006.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Edit: cross-posted with Jason, a resident mod to the rescue thans, jb!

    Hi again. I found this Drop test only portion of the kit : TFTestkits.net

    I put in a request to check and see if that's all you need to add to the k2005 to make it workable for a slam

    Forgive my terrible "ipadian" typing, btw
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    This gives me a little hope atleast!! Mine resembles the 4/30 picture. Mind you I had a crystal clear pool that has been open since 1st of April. I have failed to maintain properly and promise if I get it back right I will do better! Waiting on my awesome test kit to get here!

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    Re: 20x40 IG, vinyl. pool green w debris. Shock first, then clean & add h2o?

    Thank you! I ordered the piece of the kit. I like that- iPadian typing. I have that illness too. lol.
    33,000 gallon, IG, vinyl. Hayward cartridge swimclear. Hayward superpump 1 HP. Hayward chlorine feeder, cl 200.

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