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Thread: Chas' Method

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    Question Chas' Method

    Split off from HERE. jblizzle

    Quote Originally Posted by poolnoob.ca View Post
    The only algaecide killer is chlorine, preferably in liquid form to prevent side effects on pH or CH or CYA. And don't use 8 gallons of shock or you may bleach the liner.
    20x40 w/deep end - a lot of water. Add the cl mid pool at the break with the system running. Gotta hit it hard enough to do something!
    Deep end goes sour first - circulation problem comes to mind.
    Algae is killed with algaecide, chlorine helps prevent it and can help kill it, algaecide (at least in Wisconsin) is necessary to kill algae.
    27' round 20,000 gallon AG pool, hard (vermiculite) bottom, center dished to water depth of 5'6" with main drain. All inground equipment; Sta-Rite 3/4hp Dura-Glas pump, Sta-Rite stainless steel "bullet" 100 sq. ft. cartridge filter, RayPak RP2100 LP gas heater, Sani-King chlorine erosion feeder. Custom return opposite the skimmer, Barracuda Alpha-1 suction side cleaner, 4 grandkids to stir up the water.

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    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    20x40 w/deep end - a lot of water. Add the cl mid pool at the break with the system running. Gotta hit it hard enough to do something!
    Deep end goes sour first - circulation problem comes to mind.
    Algae is killed with algaecide, chlorine helps prevent it and can help kill it, algaecide (at least in Wisconsin) is necessary to kill algae.
    This is entirely incorrect. Algaecide is more of a preventative and chlorine is by FAR the best way to kill and eliminate algae ... even whatever special algae you think you have in WI. Following the ShockLevelAndMAINTAIN Process with chlorine will kill anything in the water and clear up any pool.

    Also, liquid chlorine should be slowly poured in front of a return jet in the deep end to ensure it mixes well.
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    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    This is entirely incorrect. Algaecide is more of a preventative and chlorine is by FAR the best way to kill and eliminate algae ... even whatever special algae you think you have in WI. Following the ShockLevelAndMAINTAIN Process with chlorine will kill anything in the water and clear up any pool.

    Also, liquid chlorine should be slowly poured in front of a return jet in the deep end to ensure it mixes well.
    HooWee! Guess I ruffled some feathers….didn’t mean to, bein’ a new guy and all. Hmmmm…..
    Guess I got some re-education coming. Maybe my observations over the past 25 years in my own pool aren’t accurate, nor are my observations of countless customers’ pools in working for pool service companies and running my own pool service company since the late 1960s are inaccurate as well.
    Specifically: It is absolutely essential to maintain a minimum free chlorine level of 2 – 3ppm at a pH of 7.4 and a combined chlorine (chloramine) count of virtually 0ppm at all times in an outdoor pool to run a “troublefree pool”. However, due to environmental factors like country living or rain, algae spores enter the pool water at high enough levels to allow the algae to begin to grow – even with proper free chlorine levels in the pool. Therefore, algaecide (suffix “cide” as in homicide or genocide – you know – to kill) is necessary to Kill the algae. There is also algaestat - used to Prevent algae spores from colonizing. I’m not a big believer in algaestat, as free chlorine pretty much does that job, but algaecide has come to the rescue time and time again – with free chlorine always in the pool. Pool walls feeling a little slippery? Get some algaecide in. Use the good stuff, 60% active ingredient non copper. $26 – $30/qt.

    “whatever special algae you think you have in WI” Huh?

    Liquid chlorine is absolutely heavier than water and will migrate throughout the pool all by itself, even with no circulation system running. We’ve proven that countless times in countless customer situations. We rarely add chlorine to the deep end, when you see aging liner pools with abused liners, that’s where the major bleaching is – the hopper. Liquid sodium hypochlorite (chlorine) is heavier than water.
    27' round 20,000 gallon AG pool, hard (vermiculite) bottom, center dished to water depth of 5'6" with main drain. All inground equipment; Sta-Rite 3/4hp Dura-Glas pump, Sta-Rite stainless steel "bullet" 100 sq. ft. cartridge filter, RayPak RP2100 LP gas heater, Sani-King chlorine erosion feeder. Custom return opposite the skimmer, Barracuda Alpha-1 suction side cleaner, 4 grandkids to stir up the water.

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    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Seems that perhaps your methods are against TFP methods and would be confusing to new people learning TFP methods. Liquid chlorine can and does kill algae. TFP methods have worked better for me than the algaecides sold to me by the pool store.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    HooWee! Guess I ruffled some feathers….didn’t mean to, bein’ a new guy and all. Hmmmm…..
    Guess I got some re-education coming. Maybe my observations over the past 25 years in my own pool aren’t accurate, nor are my observations of countless customers’ pools in working for pool service companies and running my own pool service company since the late 1960s are inaccurate as well.
    Specifically: It is absolutely essential to maintain a minimum free chlorine level of 2 – 3ppm at a pH of 7.4 and a combined chlorine (chloramine) count of virtually 0ppm at all times in an outdoor pool to run a “troublefree pool”. However, due to environmental factors like country living or rain, algae spores enter the pool water at high enough levels to allow the algae to begin to grow – even with proper free chlorine levels in the pool. Therefore, algaecide (suffix “cide” as in homicide or genocide – you know – to kill) is necessary to Kill the algae. There is also algaestat - used to Prevent algae spores from colonizing. I’m not a big believer in algaestat, as free chlorine pretty much does that job, but algaecide has come to the rescue time and time again – with free chlorine always in the pool. Pool walls feeling a little slippery? Get some algaecide in. Use the good stuff, 60% active ingredient non copper. $26 – $30/qt.

    “whatever special algae you think you have in WI” Huh?

    Liquid chlorine is absolutely heavier than water and will migrate throughout the pool all by itself, even with no circulation system running. We’ve proven that countless times in countless customer situations. We rarely add chlorine to the deep end, when you see aging liner pools with abused liners, that’s where the major bleaching is – the hopper. Liquid sodium hypochlorite (chlorine) is heavier than water.

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    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    HooWee! Guess I ruffled some feathers….didn’t mean to, bein’ a new guy and all. Hmmmm…..
    Guess I got some re-education coming. Maybe my observations over the past 25 years in my own pool aren’t accurate, nor are my observations of countless customers’ pools in working for pool service companies and running my own pool service company since the late 1960s are inaccurate as well.
    I would argue that yes, being involved in the industry that long has you stuck with the old inaccurate way of thinking about pool chemistry as you apparently still believe what the pool chemical companies are telling you ... as I will address below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    Specifically: It is absolutely essential to maintain a minimum free chlorine level of 2 – 3ppm at a pH of 7.4 and a combined chlorine (chloramine) count of virtually 0ppm at all times in an outdoor pool to run a “troublefree pool”.
    This is not true as you have not even mentioned the CYA in the pool. And this is what those in the pool industry either just do not understand or ignore for profit purposes. The required FC level to keep a pool clear and sanitary is a function of the stabilizer level according to the FC/CYA Chart. A FC of 2-3ppm with NOT keep a pool clear if your CYA is > 40ppm. These studies were done in the 1970s and are back up by science ... not your personal potentially biased observations. Feel free to take a look at Pool School and read the forum ... especially the expert posts by chem geek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    However, due to environmental factors like country living or rain, algae spores enter the pool water at high enough levels to allow the algae to begin to grow – even with proper free chlorine levels in the pool. Therefore, algaecide (suffix “cide” as in homicide or genocide – you know – to kill) is necessary to Kill the algae.
    Again, if you keep the required FC level in the water (as a function of your CYA level) ... does not matter how many spores are introduced. The chlorine (and chlorine alone) will kill them and keep the pool clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    is also algaestat - used to Prevent algae spores from colonizing. I’m not a big believer in algaestat, as free chlorine pretty much does that job, but algaecide has come to the rescue time and time again – with free chlorine always in the pool. Pool walls feeling a little slippery? Get some algaecide in. Use the good stuff, 60% active ingredient non copper. $26 – $30/qt.
    Hey, we agree on one thing ... not to add copper Although no point in wasting that much money on algaecides when chlorine will do the job alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    Liquid chlorine is absolutely heavier than water and will migrate throughout the pool all by itself, even with no circulation system running. We’ve proven that countless times in countless customer situations. We rarely add chlorine to the deep end, when you see aging liner pools with abused liners, that’s where the major bleaching is – the hopper. Liquid sodium hypochlorite (chlorine) is heavier than water.
    You are welcome to add your chemicals how you like, but what we recommend lowers the likelihood of any damage occurring. We will not allow potentially harmful suggestions to stand without correction.

    All that said, algaecides and other potions do have a place in very rare circumstances ... OR ... for use by pool maintenance companies. What you may not realize is that this forum is focused on helping owners maintain their own pools and by understanding their pool’s chemistry and through accurate testing, adding only what the pool NEEDS. The TFPC method is not designed for companies that only show up once every week or 2. And companies like that must try to use extra chemicals to make up for the rare visits.

    BTW, I am going to split our posts out of this thread to your own thread where we can continued discussions if you so desire.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    I will be brief. Chas, you did not ruffle any feathers but you will be corrected when you post information that is incorrect as you have done
    Guess I got some re-education coming. Maybe my observations over the past 25 years in my own pool aren’t accurate, nor are my observations of countless customers’ pools in working for pool service companies and running my own pool service company since the late 1960s are inaccurate as well.
    Yes you do, if you will allow yourself the openmindedness to read through this forum and see what we teach is absolutely scientifically accurate.
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    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    HooWee! Guess I ruffled some feathers….didn’t mean to, bein’ a new guy and all. Hmmmm…..
    I'm sure there's other forums that aren't contrary to your beliefs, Chas.

    What you have done is the equivalent of going to a Mustang forum and suggesting someone buy a Camaro; A vegan cooking website where you share your recipe for barbecue ribs; Posting of reincarnation and nirvana on a fundamentalist Christian forum. I don't think it's intentional or you would have been booted as a troll already.

    This is a system that works. There is consistency here. If you haven't been reading, I'll tell you that there are folks here who are completely clueless about pools and embittered by pool stores and pool service techs and want a way out. And they'll get the same answers pretty much from everyone here. Except you.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Chas, you do have some points, like Liquid Chlorine being heavier than water, this is why we teach to pour it slowly in front of a return so it mixes, if it is settling in the hopper end of a traditional pool you are pouring too fast. Which may be an issue as a pool service tech who is rushed for time. We also have thousands of members who are using our techniques who have trouble free pools with no weekly shocking, no pool store magic potions, algaecides, etc. needed, and most will also tell you there water has never been better, no cloudiness, no green, less burning eyes, etc. Much is this is due to a proper understanding of active chlorine and how it relates to the CYA to FC ratio, something that is ignored by much of the industry, just see the pool store acceptable range for CYA which may say something like 50 - 200 ppm is ideal. By comparison we control CYA levels much more tightly with an acceptable range of 40-60 ppm for manually dosed outdoor pools, (60 ppm only for prime sunbelt locations) and 70-80 ppm for SWG pools, with corresponding FC levels for each 10 ppm change in CYA.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Any concentrated chemical added over a return flow with the pump running should also be followed up with brushing of the pool sides and bottom in the area where it is added. This is true for chlorine, but most especially true when adding acid.

    As others have noted, you apparently are not aware of the chlorine/CYA relationship so are attributing algaecide as being necessary when it is not. This is known science since at least 1974 and if you are really interested in it then you can read the numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals linked to in the "Chlorine/CYA Relationship" section of the thread Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught. The FC/CYA ratio is proportional to the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level that kills algae, disinfects, oxidizes bather waste, etc. So specifying an FC without talking about the CYA level is completely pointless with respect to whether one can keep a pool free of algae. The Chlorine / CYA Chart gives the minimum FC at each CYA level (basically the constant FC/CYA ratio) that prevents green and black algae growth regardless of phosphate level. This prevention includes killing new algae spores blown into the pool -- the kill rate from chlorine at the proper FC/CYA ratio is faster than the algae reproduction rate.

    The reason the CYA level is so relevant is that the vast majority of chlorine in a pool is bound to CYA. In a pool with 6 ppm FC and 80 ppm CYA, for example, 99% of the FC is bound to CYA and (at a pH near 7.5) only 0.5% is hypochlorous acid and 0.5% is hypochlorite ion. The chlorine bound to CYA is nearly inert and has less than 1/150th the oxidation power of hypochlorous acid and almost no disinfecting power. So we focus solely on the hypochlorous acid concentration for determining the appropriate level of active chlorine in a pool. We have seen numerous pools with 3 ppm FC get algae because their CYA was higher, usually above 50 ppm or so because the minimum FC at 50 ppm CYA is closer to 4 ppm if the pool is rich in algae nutrients. In a saltwater chlorine generator pool, this often shows up as a mysterious chlorine demand with the SWG unable to keep up to produce enough chlorine (i.e. 3 ppm FC with 80 ppm CYA is not sufficient), but the reality is that the FC/CYA ratio got too low and allowed algae to grow even if it is not yet visible. The solution is to SLAM the pool to kill off the algae and then to subsequently maintain the proper FC/CYA ratio. If that is maintained, the problem will not occur again.

    Now one can certainly have a pool lower in phosphate (or nitrate) such that algae growth is limited or a pool that uses an algaecide so that a lower FC/CYA ratio would appear to prevent algae, but the point is that even with tens of thousands of ppb of phosphate (which some members of this forum have) algae can be completely controlled with chlorine alone, at the proper FC/CYA ratio as per the table. This has been proven in this (and other) forums over and over again where there are over 80,000 members of TFP with nearly half a million visitors per month during peak swim season. The reason this site is so popular is because the methods work. The reason the methods work is because they are based on sound science and validated in real pools.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    there are over 80,000 members of TFP with nearly half a million visitors per month during peak swim season. The reason this site is so popular is because the methods work. The reason the methods work is because they are based on sound science and validated in real pools.
    I would dare to say the reason this site is so popular is because most other methods often stop working. People don't go online searching for new advice because their current method is working. Now the number of people who stay, that is because the methods work.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    The reason this site is so popular is because the methods work. The reason the methods work is because they are based on sound science and validated in real pools.


    I was so happy to see you chime in on this thread chemgeek
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    Re: Chas' Method

    True that y'all....found TFP while searching for a cure from Algecides.....and haven't looked back in 2 years. nuff said!
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Donldson View Post
    I would dare to say the reason this site is so popular is because most other methods often stop working. People don't go online searching for new advice because their current method is working. Now the number of people who stay, that is because the methods work.
    Very true and more accurate than what I wrote. Roughly estimating, I'd say that around 20% of the 10 million swimming pools in the U.S. get into problems each season. Some pools get through several or many seasons without problems while others have problems every season, but most people go to pool stores to get "remedies" that are expensive and don't always work. When people come here, they take charge of their pool and use the minimum number of "products" to maintain it, usually a lot less expensively though with more diffuse effort (i.e. regular testing and dosing).
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    Re: Chas' Method

    I was lucky and found TFP just before my pool was filled. I learned the TFP method of only adding what the pool needs. And thats what I do.
    Ive never put 1 drop of algaecide in my pool. Not 1. I have never had any algae whatsoever and I have never "shocked" my pool. Not once. I keep my FC/CYA in tact and I can read the date on a quarter at the bottom of the deep end.

    There are lots of others here with the same experience I have.

    We do however understand, that being in the pool business, you certainly cannot devote teh time required for TFP methods to all of your customers pools. We appreciate that you do the best you can, but the science which chem geek refers to without any doubt proves that the gerneral understanding of folks in the pool industry is clearly misguided.

    If you care to have a read at the scientific posts, we welcome you to do that.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Wow! Hey, y’all – I gotta give you all a genuine, heartfelt, really big THANK YOU! Your remarks are heard and I get it! Your remarks re; the relationship between CYA and FC are spot on – I admit openly that while I was kinda sorta partially aware that such a relationship exists, really, I’m clueless about the science of how to work with that relationship.
    What’s really put a smile on my face, tho, is that you folks and this forum have thrown a much needed sparkle on my attitude about the swimming pool industry. I grew up in a pool building family, built and serviced vinyl liner inground pools full time throughout the very late 60s, all of the 70s into the early 80s. Got sick of it and went to school for HVAC, that’s been my full time gig in one way or another since the early 80s. But I continued to open, close, repair, find and fix leaks and build new pools every summer since the early 80s, right up to now. I don’t have a service “route”, never did.
    I’ve said for years that compared to the HVAC industry, the pool biz – at least the wholesalers and companies I deal with – are stuck in the 70s with their heads in the sand. Training and good info is extremely difficult to find, where in the HVAC biz the opposite is true. I’ve developed my methods in pool chemistry through the years, wrong as they may be, but they work, at least good enough. I don’t sell chems except for openings and closings and my customers rarely ask me chemistry questions. When they do, I refer them to the local pool stores.
    I found this forum because I was researching ideas of how to deal with the nasty iron in my own freshly well-filled pool where I replaced the liner on Memorial Day. At my age, that will be the last liner that goes in my pool, I didn’t want it stained like previous liners.
    So – I will read and I will learn about your method(s). Who knows, maybe it will jump start a retirement gig for me……
    Thanks guys!
    27' round 20,000 gallon AG pool, hard (vermiculite) bottom, center dished to water depth of 5'6" with main drain. All inground equipment; Sta-Rite 3/4hp Dura-Glas pump, Sta-Rite stainless steel "bullet" 100 sq. ft. cartridge filter, RayPak RP2100 LP gas heater, Sani-King chlorine erosion feeder. Custom return opposite the skimmer, Barracuda Alpha-1 suction side cleaner, 4 grandkids to stir up the water.

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    Re: Chas' Method

    That's a very gracious response Chas and I hope you are commended by everyone for it.

    This whole group defends itself fiercely because we are still a small voice in the big ole' pool industry but we know we are a clear voice with a clear message.....pool care does not have to be a mystery.

    There are some darn good "metals" folks on here, too. YOu can research the many hundreds of threads here or post your own questions and you will find a pretty good dialogue.

    So, I forgot to say it earlier and that was careless.....Welcome to the forum.
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Chaz,

    You hit the nail on the head, the pool industry is stuck in the past. The problem is that there is not a viable industry in the methods we use. A pool store in most of the country with limited sales season can't make enough money to keep the doors open. They need to sell lots of "stuff". A bucket of tabs makes them more money than a jug of chlorine. Following our methods those $30 bottles of algecide are unnecessary. Clarifier, nope - not needed. Floculant, no again.

    So, even with the science being available from the 70's, as with everything else - follow the money. No money to be made, no one will push the science.

    And, where are my manners - Welcome to TFP!
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    Re: Chas' Method

    Chas,

    Man we can help you with your iron. You came to the right place!

    If you have iron and no way to every rid yourself of it (and it seems you don't), , then you will need to use one of the few products from the pool store that we agree is necessary in some cases.
    You'll need to sequester the iron with something like Jacks Magic sequestrant. You will need to use it as an ongoing maintenance item, along with keeping the rest of your water parameters in check.

    As for stains, if you happen to get any, they can easily be removed by an ascorbic acid treatment.



    We're glad to have you here Chas. We hope you hang around. With your PB experience, no doubt you could be a big help to many folks here.
    Divin Dave,
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    DFW, TX
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    23,994

    Re: Chas' Method

    Hey, very nice. Welcome to TFP!
    TFP Moderator
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Quinlan, tx
    Posts
    811

    Re: Pool Suddenly Cloudy in the Deep End

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320 View Post
    I'm sure there's other forums that aren't contrary to your beliefs, Chas.

    What you have done is the equivalent of going to a Mustang forum and suggesting someone buy a Camaro; A vegan cooking website where you share your recipe for barbecue ribs; Posting of reincarnation and nirvana on a fundamentalist Christian forum. I don't think it's intentional or you would have been booted as a troll already..
    Great analogy!
    26,000 IG, pebble tec, flagstone, pentair Triton II TR100 sand filter & VS+SVRS 3hp multi-speed pump, Intellichlor IC-40 SWG, Pentair Booster Cleaner, spillover spa, waterfall, Taylor K-2006 testkit
    [It is better to know how to learn, than to know. - Dr. Seuss[/I]

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