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Thread: adding borates, have a question

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    lefty51's Avatar
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    adding borates, have a question

    I'm going to start the borax treatment today. PH is 7.4, TA is 70, CYA is 60 ( I think)

    I think I will leave CYA adjust till after borates (if you think that's wise)

    My question is when adding the borax and acid can or should I aerate the pool as I go or just leave it on normal return.
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Cannot help you on this one, but I know others can. I have considered borates, but think I will wait until next season when I replace pool.
    Lisa
    Intex AG vinyl 15' x 48" 4,300 gallons due to skimmer install, Krystal Clear SF pump combo 2800 GPH, Krystal Clear SWG, Pool Blaster Max vacuum, Hayward thru the wall skimmer, TF 100 test kit with speed stir, K 1766 Taylor salt test, My SLAM Process

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    lefty51's Avatar
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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Thanks Lisa, since FC finally came down and everything is there, I'm ready to try borates to see the "sparkle" Just trying to head off low PH during the process
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    The most import thing you can do BEFORE adding borates is adjust your TA. Once you add borates it's really difficult to lower it. So make sure it's right where you want it.

    The primary advantage to borates is that it helps stabilize pH. A problem in a SWG pool where pH rise is a constant problem.

    When adding just divide the amount of borax and acid by three and then put 1/3 of the borax in followed by 1/3 of the acid, wait a bit, then repeat, on the final third, you want to check your pH before starting so that you can do any fine adjustments to it as you are finishing. Any slight errors in the volume of the pool or amount of chemicals could produce a wild swing in pH, so use caution.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    lefty51's Avatar
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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
    The most import thing you can do BEFORE adding borates is adjust your TA. Once you add borates it's really difficult to lower it. So make sure it's right where you want it.

    The primary advantage to borates is that it helps stabilize pH. A problem in a SWG pool where pH rise is a constant problem.

    When adding just divide the amount of borax and acid by three and then put 1/3 of the borax in followed by 1/3 of the acid, wait a bit, then repeat, on the final third, you want to check your pH before starting so that you can do any fine adjustments to it as you are finishing. Any slight errors in the volume of the pool or amount of chemicals could produce a wild swing in pH, so use caution.
    Thanks, I was going to do a third at a time instead of half so I could get "extra" brushing in and allow more time for mixing . So I should check PH before adding final third and adjust for PH when adding final third ? That would make me feel a little better about PH swing, that's why I thought about aerating during process. Thanks again !
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Or use boric acid (roach powder) and not mess around with the MA.
    Bob - Palm Beach by San Juan Pools. approx 5000 gals., Pentair 320 cartridge filter (all new guts installed by me), Goldline SWG, 'New to me' Kreepy Krauly Sand Shark, Intermec 104 Timer Test kit: TF-100 w/Speed Stir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by pabeader View Post
    Or use boric acid (roach powder) and not mess around with the MA.
    Well, before I could REALLY checked on boric acid prices, the boss came home with 14 boxes of 20 mule team (raided two Walmarts to get), so I went to Lowes and bought the MA. So this first time will be the hard route. She said she would happily use what's left over. I should at least have clean clothes (even if there's acid holes in them)
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty51 View Post
    Well, before I could REALLY checked on boric acid prices, the boss came home with 14 boxes of 20 mule team (raided two Walmarts to get), so I went to Lowes and bought the MA. So this first time will be the hard route. She said she would happily use what's left over. I should at least have clean clothes (even if there's acid holes in them)
    Lol. You will be known as the holy man. Just try not to get the MA on you and I hope you cand hold your breath. It is strong stuff.
    Lisa
    Intex AG vinyl 15' x 48" 4,300 gallons due to skimmer install, Krystal Clear SF pump combo 2800 GPH, Krystal Clear SWG, Pool Blaster Max vacuum, Hayward thru the wall skimmer, TF 100 test kit with speed stir, K 1766 Taylor salt test, My SLAM Process

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    It won't be hard at all. I did the equal split. After adding Borax I brushed all sides well, then acid, bush all sides again, rest of Borax again brush vigorously all sides, finally acid, brush again. Keep the pump running the whole time and I ran it for 48 hours after. It had stabilized my PH and TA tremendously....
    Inground 13,200 gal Vinyl, Pentair 3/4 hp pump, Pentair Sand Dollar filter, Polaris 280

    Pool School, Pool Math, CYA to FC ratio chart, Testing Kits

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by Defgufman View Post
    It won't be hard at all. I did the equal split. After adding Borax I brushed all sides well, then acid, bush all sides again, rest of Borax again brush vigorously all sides, finally acid, brush again. Keep the pump running the whole time and I ran it for 48 hours after. It had stabilized my PH and TA tremendously....
    I know the guide says acid than borax. does it matter as long as I'm brushing and don't take a long lunch in between the acid and borax ?
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by Defgufman View Post
    ....It had stabilized my PH and TA tremendously....
    +1

    I'm on my 3rd season where I haven't had to add any acid, even using a SWCG.
    20k IG vinyl liner/Aqua Rite SWCG, T-15 cell/Hayward Pro Grid 6020 DE filter/Polaris 280 with booster pump/Hayward Superpump 1 hp/city water/pool installed March 2004

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty51 View Post
    I know the guide says acid than borax. does it matter as long as I'm brushing and don't take a long lunch in between the acid and borax ?
    I did it with 30 minutes between sets, but each set was half borax half acid
    Inground 13,200 gal Vinyl, Pentair 3/4 hp pump, Pentair Sand Dollar filter, Polaris 280

    Pool School, Pool Math, CYA to FC ratio chart, Testing Kits

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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty51 View Post
    I know the guide says acid than borax. does it matter as long as I'm brushing and don't take a long lunch in between the acid and borax ?
    Either way will work, just don't add one then leave it that way. I prefer to add borax first. I just worry more about what a very low pH would do.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    lefty51's Avatar
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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post
    +1

    I'm on my 3rd season where I haven't had to add any acid, even using a SWCG.
    That's my main goal for adding borates. It will be a nice bonus if everyone tells me it "sparkles". Well the mules hauled the acid down into the pool, so time will tell. I know..... someone is thinking "boy your fast at brushing" or "hey, you didn't brush enough !" Well mom, I must confess there were two brushes working on the pool and I was the relief man ! So how soon can I test PH and get an accurate reading 24 or 48 hrs ?
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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    Defgufman's Avatar
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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    My PH was normal in 30 minutes
    Inground 13,200 gal Vinyl, Pentair 3/4 hp pump, Pentair Sand Dollar filter, Polaris 280

    Pool School, Pool Math, CYA to FC ratio chart, Testing Kits

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    lefty51's Avatar
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    Re: adding borates, have a question

    Quote Originally Posted by Defgufman View Post
    My PH was normal in 30 minutes
    Well, I guess it's a learning process. checked the numbers this morning. PH went from 7.4 to 8, TA from 70 to 80. Even though I was positive about pool volume I might have to tweak that in the future. I was so concerned about PH drop I let it aerate all night (it's a 24 pipe with about 20 1/8 " holes drill at angles), so that would account for some of the rise. But the TA should have come out pretty even. I was (almost) dead on with the amounts of borax and acid according to pool math. (It's hard to be accurate with acid burning my finger and fumes)

    I'm posting these so other newbies like me will learn to slow down and think things through twice

    So after imputing new numbers, I added the 46 oz of acid it called for. Then I thought, OH NO , I forgot to account for the borates ! Went back into pool math and it had me covered. It had the borates at 50 from my calculations from yesterday and assumed my borate level ! (Good pool math, good boy .) You should probably have a popup box after adding numbers that's says "Hey slick, did you double check all the numbers ?"

    I'm at that dangerous point where it's getting easier each day, but with that confidence I forget some of the obvious stuff. Learn, goof up! Learn, goof up less, maybe someday, Learn, and don't goof up.
    Si -central Mo. 32' x 16' -- 3'4" to 6' deep Vinyl liner - 16,500 Gals : Triton II filter -Duraglass 2 hp pump - 1 speed : SI-30 salt generator
    TF-100 with speedstir

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