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Thread: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

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    Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    So I got my TF100 kit and it had my pH at 8.2, which was pretty consistent with the strips. Though pH2 was the highest so it may even be higher. I've read SWG pool pH runs high and had added muriatic acid a few weeks ago when I just had the strips and those read high. Today, with the 8.2 pH reading on the TF100, I added about two cups (just under the 18oz required) of pH down to get the amount down. Yeah, it wasn't Muriatic Acid and I get all the downsides but was sick for days from smelling the fumes of it. Four hours later, it was still at 8.2 (and that's with the four swim jets mixing it all up for four hours) so I went to add two more cups of pH Down and accidentally added pH up! So I added another two cups of pH down in hopes that this would counterbalance the pH up but I'm terrified to even go in the pool now. I'm going to wait until tomorrow to test it. I'm guessing the pH Down will cancel out the pH Up and I'll still be too high of a pH. Any ideas why this pH runs so high??

    Thank you!

    - Christian
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Can you post a full set of test results?

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Let's see a full set of test results so we can figure out what is going on.

    Check this
    Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

    Here is more info on the Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals and how to add them
    Use Pool School - PoolMath to figure out how much to add.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    I only ran FC, CC, and pH. FC was 7ppm, CC was 1.5ppm, and pH was 8.2.

    I added about 16oz of pH down, then later 16oz of pH up because it was still reading at about 8.2 four hours later, then another 16oz of pH down to counterbalance the pH up.

    The pool is 10k gallons and it's SWG. Filter is running 12 hours per day (Louisiana summer) with 45% chlorination. It's probably too high because the FC was 7ppm and total was 8.5 so I set it to 30% chlorination which is a little over three and a half hours per day of chlorination.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will try to run more tests tomorrow but I still need to know if php down counterbalances ph up. In theory it seems like it should but I wasn't sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Whatever tests I run tomorrow will probably reflect that down / up / down conundrum. The pH of the little blue kit inside the TF100 had the pH reading at 8.2.

    If it helps until I get the liquid tests done, the strips have the hardness at pretty high, the chlorine about the same as what the drops say (maybe a little lower), and the total alkalinity a little above the center of the color bar in "ok." I realize the strips are frowned on but I ran the liquid tests for FC, CC, and pH.
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Another note. I've read elsewhere that aerating the pool is a way to get pH up. I have four swim jets driven by two powerful Hayward pumps. I'm not sure an Olympian could swim against these things at full blast. They also have a lot of air in the jet stream. I'm wondering if that, along with the fact that it's SWG (roughly 3100ppm salt at the moment), might be spiking the pH?
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    That will raise PH. Need to know what your TA is. 8.2 is the top of the scale it could be higher. It is important to maintain PH between 7.2 and 7.8.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    I think you need to grab a set of your kids snorkle mask, stand upwind and learn to use MA. Once you learn how to store it, to open it while looking away, pour and mix it in to the pool water in a thin dribble-stream while someone else uses a brush on a pole and mixes it in to the pool water, it is not as scary. It will be cheaper and faster than odd and assorted ups and downs in a bottle.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Pooldv: I haven't done TA with the liquid but the strips have it at about 120.

    - - - Updated - - -

    YippeeSkippee: We'll see. But either way, when I did add the amount of muriatic acid that pool calculator.com told me too a few weeks ago, that didn't do anything for the pH either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What's worse is the pool now smells like sulfur. I hope that goes away.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm going to retest with the TF100 tomorrow but since the pH was at the top of the reading (8.2), I'm not even sure what to do.
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    With the strong aeration, SWG and heater, you will need a much lower TA to control the pH.

    Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity

    Sulfur smell is usually caused by hydrogen sulfide. This can come from wells or other sources. Sulfate-reducing bacteria can change sulfate into hydrogen sulfide. Anodes can reduce sulfates into sulfides. The pH reducer contains sulfates, but I wouldn't think that that's related unless there was something that could chemically reduce the sulfate into sulfide.

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    On a good note, the pool has been and remains crystal clear.
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    JamesW: We just went out in front of the house and I think it's more of a gas smell and it's around the whole neighborhood so that's probably not the pool. At least I hope not!

    The strips (yeah, I know, but I'm going to have to do the rest of the liquid tests tomorrow or Saturday) always had a total hardness of about 500ppm. Adding acid hasn't helped that but i just read your link at the Pool School and I'm guessing that aeration is not helping. Given that Clorox doesn't even market its pH Up to SWG owners, I'm hoping that the two cups of that I added aren't going to be a nightmare to come back from and that a little more acid will just counterbalance it.

    We run these four swim jets a lot so the pool is constantly being aerated. If that affects pH that dramatically then it's clear I have to add acid more often. I'm going to get a fume mask for that wretched muriatic acid. I hate that there isn't a dry acid that won't add sulfites because that muriatic **** is a nightmare and I have to find the lesser percentage that doesn't also have weird additives (ala Acid Magic which I wouldn't dare add).

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wish TH had something for pH higher than 8.2 so I could at least see where it actually is, though the color matches 8.2 exactly with the TF-100 test.
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    How old is the plaster?

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    If your up past 8.2, just take a few hours this weekend and get it down. Use Pool Math to target like 7.4. Test in an hour. If its still 8.2, do it again. Keep repeating until your back on the scale. It is 10 times harder to go from lets say 8.6 to 8.2 than it is to go from 7.6 to 7.2...
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Scuba_Steve: sounds like a good plan of attack.

    JamesW: the plaster is about four months old. I'm probably going back to that horrid muriatic acid but going to try to get the lighter dilution.
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianday View Post
    Scuba_Steve: sounds like a good plan of attack.

    JamesW: the plaster is about four months old. I'm probably going back to that horrid muriatic acid but going to try to get the lighter dilution.
    if you can afford it, the "weaker" muratic acid will work, but you need more. Plus, the funny thing is that there is little difference between the cost of the full strength and the half strength. I just can't bring myself to buy half strength for the same cost as full strength.
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    I'm not a big fan of muriatic acid either. The key, as yippee or skippy said, the wind is your friend, make sure you are upwind of the bottle and it's all good.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianday View Post
    Scuba_Steve: sounds like a good plan of attack.

    JamesW: the plaster is about four months old. I'm probably going back to that horrid muriatic acid but going to try to get the lighter dilution.
    Sent you a PM.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    You need to lower your TA gradually. PH will come back up.
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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    So here's an update.

    Using PoolCalculator.com as my guide, I added about 18oz more of dry acid to bring the 8.2+ pH down to 7.2. I ran all the TF100 Tests three hours later and here's what I've got:

    pH: 8.2
    FC: 5.5
    CC: 1.5
    TC: 7
    TA: 140
    CH: 500
    CYA: 40

    * The TF100 says that 60 - 90 is good TA for SWG pools and 100 - 120 for manually chlorinated. Mine is high for either.

    * The kit also says that 60 - 80ppm is good CYA for SWG and 40 to 50 is good for manually chlorinated. I'm at the low end for manually chlorinated on our SWG pool.

    * The 500 CH is just obnoxiously high. The pool is relatively new so this must be either New Orleans water or something used in the pool plaster. According to a 2012 New Orleans water department report, we have 180mg per liter, which, on two websites I used, converts to 180ppm, which is less than half what this water actually is. Would the salt falsely raise the calcium level readings? Pool Calculator says to replace 48% of the water with calcium free water. This is not feasible and where would I even get that much calcium free water?

    * As you can see, the additional 18oz of dry acid did not lower the acid from 8.2 at all, where it's stayed through every pH test I've taken. This is after adding about 18oz dry acid, 18oz soda ash (by accident) and, today, another 18oz of dry acid.

    I am at my wits end and hope the experts on here have an idea what could be going on.

    My eternal thanks!

    Christian
    10k gal gunite/plaster Hayward OmniLogic panel with phone app Hayward ColorLogic Lights Hayward Heater Hayward AquaRite salt chlorinator Hayward Pool Vac XL Hayward Pump Four custom swim jets with 2 Hayward pumps

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    Re: Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.

    Like I said before. You probably need to add multiple doses. The kit only reads as high as 8.2. So if your pH were lets say 9. it would still say 8.2. You need to add, wait an hour, test, then recalculate and add again.... and again... and again if necessary.

    BTW, ignore the recommended levels in your TF-100. Use these instead. Recommended Levels
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