Need electricial help for sub-panel

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jagger2005

LifeTime Supporter
Oct 5, 2014
445
San Antonio, TX
A sub panel needs to be installed for my pool equipment. It will be attached to the opposite of the house and it will be 130ft buried underground. My equipment will be a pump/sand filter/2 pool lights/SWCG. I might add some landscaping lighting later. The PB wanted to charge some silly amount 2500 to 3000. I contacted the company that installed my PV solar panels years ago and they quoted 1675. Coworker knew a electrician who said he would do it for 850 - if I dug the trench, which is no big deal because I live on sand. Well now the pool is past gunite and the coworker electrician is too busy! So my friend, who is extremely handy and has done lots of electrical work (but not a trade electrician), suggested I buy the supplies and he would help get it hooked up.

After reading a few posts on TFP, I am beginning to question my friend. I bought the sub panel enclosure, a 60 amp breaker to put in the main breaker panel, 1 1/4 sched 40 PVC, and #6 wire. My friend said I only need 3 conductors run to the sub panel - 2 hot and a ground. This is the part I am questioning. From what I am seeing posted, I also need a neutral. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

And know that I am questioning things, do I need a grounding rod for the sub panel?

Marty
 
If all of the loads are 240V, it may be okay to have just 2 hots and ground (that's what we have with our old wiring, but I'm not sure if still legal to do today) -- but doing that limits you to pumps (and probably SWCG); the lights would have to be supplied from another circuit somewhere (at least I think all lights are 120V). Running 4 wires (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) gives the most flexibility and allows you to mix 240V and 120V loads from the subpanel.

ETA: For grounding, I'd check with the building dept or another licensed electrician -- I believe in most cases they want to see the subpanels grounded back at the central main panel's grounding point (thus no ground rod at the subpanel), but it can vary based on the distance, what kind of structures, etc. And pool equipment bonding is a whole other thing; I've decided to have a pro redo our pool electrical because I'm not confident in getting it all right.
 
The cost of doing something wrong with electrical stuff and the pool could be much higher than a $3k... Please do not rely on a single post, including this one :)

With that said:

You have to run neutral wire as well as the ground wire, and keep neutral bus and ground bus separated in the new subpanel.

Neutral bus is only going to be used to hook up 120V devices like lights, etc. - you will use Line1 or Line2, neutral and ground. Current will be passing through Line and Neutral.

For 220V load you will run Line1, Line2 and ground. Current will be passing through Line1 and Line2.

No current should be passing through the ground wire.

As far as the grounding rod - no. Only the main panel is grounded. You will have to have a bonding wire used to bond pumps, heater, subpanel, etc. Usually subpanels have a separate bonding clamp on the outside for this. Bonding wire is also a bare wire and looks exactly like a grounding wire, but the purpose of bonding is very different.

V.B.
 
My run to my sub panel was about 75 feet and I ran 4 strands of #6 THHN wire. I ordered the wire on line and was able to get red/black/white/green. Just my personal preference on the color, and it was cheaper than the big box stores. I would err towards the side of caution and go #4 at that distance.

And as far as conduit goes, oversize, oversize, oversize. Pulling 4-#6 or #4 wires you will want some extra room. I ran 1 1/2" schedule 40. And dish soap is your friend when pulling wire!!!

I have a 110 pump, 240v swg, light, NG heater and deck outlet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ewkearns said:
Personally, I would use #4 wire for that length run.
Click to expand...

Well that might be a little disheartening since I just cut the first run off the 500 ft roll. I just noticed that I miss typed the size of the circuit breaker - it is 50 amp. So, if the only equipment in the sub panel is the 1.5hp pump, SWG, and the 2 pool lights would you still recommend the #4 - due to the length as the reason? I can absolutely live without anything else in the sub panel - landscape lights can be run from another source.

As a side note, I think I need better friends and a PB. When the PB saw me unload the roll of #6 he asked me if I got #8. And my friend said I could pull the 3 wires through 3/4 pvc. He laughed when I told him I got 1 1/4 to make it easier to pull. Even when I questioned him about the 4th wire, he talked to an electrician at his work (a HUGE energy corporation) and he still believes I can go with 3 wire since I live outside city limits.
 
Last edited:
pool1 said:
The cost of doing something wrong with electrical stuff and the pool could be much higher than a $3k... Please do not rely on a single post, including this one :)

With that said:

You have to run neutral wire as well as the ground wire, and keep neutral bus and ground bus separated in the new subpanel.

Neutral bus is only going to be used to hook up 120V devices like lights, etc. - you will use Line1 or Line2, neutral and ground. Current will be passing through Line and Neutral.

For 220V load you will run Line1, Line2 and ground. Current will be passing through Line1 and Line2.

No current should be passing through the ground wire.

As far as the grounding rod - no. Only the main panel is grounded. You will have to have a bonding wire used to bond pumps, heater, subpanel, etc. Usually subpanels have a separate bonding clamp on the outside for this. Bonding wire is also a bare wire and looks exactly like a grounding wire, but the purpose of bonding is very different.

V.B.
Click to expand...

This ^^^

On the grounding rod. You dont need one unless the panel is mounted on a structure other than the structure that houses the main. Sounds like you are mounting it to the house so you wouldnt need one.
And yes, you do need a neutral, so 4 wires, 2 hots, neutral and a ground.
 
jagger2005 said:
Well that might be a little disheartening since I just cut the first run off the 500 ft roll. I just noticed that I miss typed the size of the circuit breaker - it is 50 amp. So, if the only equipment in the sub panel is the 1.5hp pump, SWG, and the 2 pool lights would you still recommend the #4 - due to the length as the reason? As a side note, I think I need better friends and a PB.

When the PB saw me unload the roll of #6 he asked me if I got #8. And my friend said I could pull the 3 wires through 3/4 pvc. He laughed when I told him I got 1 1/4 to make it easier to pull. Even when I questioned him about the 4th wire, he talked to an electrician at his work (a HUGE energy corporation) and he still believes I can go with 3 wire since I live outside city limits.
Click to expand...

I just did the calculations. On 130 foot run with #6 wire with a 50 amp continuous load (which you would never have) the voltage drop is a pinch over 2%. Anything under 5% you're golden.

And NO NO, NO, a thousand times NO. A neutral to a subpanel with 120 volt outlets, lights, etc, is
a MUST!
The two hots go to the 2 lugs that feed the panel, the neutral goes to the neutral bus, ground to ground bus. Just make sure the bonding strap is removed from the ground and neutral bus. The main panel is the only place the neutral and ground bus are joined together.

The reason the PB asked about the #8 is because thats what you need to bond the pool. #8 bare copper wire. But thats a separate issue from the electrical service.
And I would rather be in hades with my back broke than try and fish four #6 wires 130 feet through 3/4" conduit!
 
bk406 said:
This ^^^

I'd use #4 on that distance with a 60 amp feed. If you ever thought you might want a heat pump, you would need 100 amp service. If you dont think you would ever want a heat pump, 60 amp is fine.

On the grounding rod. You dont need one unless the panel is mounted on a structure other than the structure that houses the main. Sounds like you are mounting it to the house so you wouldnt need one.
And yes, you do need a neutral, so 4 wires, 2 hots, neutral and a ground.
Click to expand...

Definitely mounting to the house. I live on 3 acres and found it amazing that I was very limited on locations for the pool equipment - restricted by septic, lat lines, and wife! I am totally on board with the 4 wires.

BTW, TFP has been god send to me. I have already learned so much about pool ownership from this site alone. I will be supporting soon since it is getting close to needing my test kit
 

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Next question...obviously not enough conductor to get 4 130 ft runs out of 500 ft roll. For the 4th wire should I also get #6 - insulated in green? or can I go with a smaller gauge? Home depot has it for 0.89/ft. Got the 500ft roll for 185
 
Some guys use one smaller gauge for the ground. Me? I'd use the insulated # 6 in green.

Did you use black wire for the neutral? If so, get a role of white electrical tape and wrap it around the end of the wire at each end so you and anyone else knows is the neutral.
 
bk406 said:
Some guys use one smaller gauge for the ground. Me? I'd use the insulated # 6 in green.

Did you use black wire for the neutral? If so, get a role of white electrical tape and wrap it around the end of the wire at each end so you and anyone else knows is the neutral.
Click to expand...

Thanks bk406. Yes 3 of the runs are black. At least my friend was good on the use of colored electric tape. LOL

So far the pool bonding looks goods. The PB had it clamped in 4 places to the rebar grid and his #8 bare wire roll is sitting on the equipment pad as we speak.
 
jagger2005 said:
Well that might be a little disheartening since I just cut the first run off the 500 ft roll. I just noticed that I miss typed the size of the circuit breaker - it is 50 amp. So, if the only equipment in the sub panel is the 1.5hp pump, SWG, and the 2 pool lights would you still recommend the #4 - due to the length as the reason? I can absolutely live without anything else in the sub panel - landscape lights can be run from another source.

As a side note, I think I need better friends and a PB. When the PB saw me unload the roll of #6 he asked me if I got #8. And my friend said I could pull the 3 wires through 3/4 pvc. He laughed when I told him I got 1 1/4 to make it easier to pull. Even when I questioned him about the 4th wire, he talked to an electrician at his work (a HUGE energy corporation) and he still believes I can go with 3 wire since I live outside city limits.
Click to expand...

As a point of reference: I actually have 40A breaker on the main panel. I became aware of it a few weeks ago when I replaced old subpanel with Omnilogic setup. Never had it tripped ones. When I bought my place I had the following equipment sitting on this 40A circuit:
1. 2 hp main pump
2. 2 hp jets pump
3. 1.5 hp spa air blower
4. Polaris booster pump
5. LP Heater
6. 2X 300W lights

Granted I never run polaris and jets at the same time :) I never had tripped that breaker.

Since then I replaced main pump with a variable speed one and replaced failed air blower with 1hp model, so my load has decreased.
 
The one thing that is missing from this conversation is "floating the neutral" The neutral in the sub panel is to be isolated from the ground in the box. The ground is to be bonded to the box but, the bond screw for the neutral is to be removed. No connection between the ground and the neutral.
 
danpik said:
The one thing that is missing from this conversation is "floating the neutral" The neutral in the sub panel is to be isolated from the ground in the box. The ground is to be bonded to the box but, the bond screw for the neutral is to be removed. No connection between the ground and the neutral.
Click to expand...

Mentioned in posts 4 and 9. ;)
 
We need a hand palm to the forehead emoticon. These will have to do ... :brickwall: :hammer:
for my punishment I will write 100 times on the board...

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Thanks to everyone for the advice. The sub panel I purchased only had one bus bar in it, so I will need to pick up a grounding bar. And I did see that the neutral bar is already "floating." The screw that could be used to bond the neutral bar to the box is in a little baggy with instructions.
 
As mentioned earlier, be sure to use colored electrical tape, or better, heat-shrink tubing to color code the wires where they are visible. (Electrical tape deteriorates quickly, heat-shrink does not.)

Ground (bonding) wire should be green.
Neutral should be white.
Hots should be one black, one red, to show at a glance that this is a 240V run. (Occasionally you see it as two red wires.)
 
TomBorg said:
As mentioned earlier, be sure to use colored electrical tape, or better, heat-shrink tubing to color code the wires where they are visible. (Electrical tape deteriorates quickly, heat-shrink does not.)

Ground (bonding) wire should be green.
Neutral should be white.
Hots should be one black, one red, to show at a glance that this is a 240V run. (Occasionally you see it as two red wires.)
Click to expand...
:goodpost:
 

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