Help balancing pool ... optimistic about BioActive

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You could get one of the blow up intex pools, dump the water in it, and use it as a reservoir to water plants when the restrictions do come. That may ease your mind some. Just a thought.


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JoyfulNoise said:
SPECULATIVE CHEMICAL EXPLANATION

Fresh 'N Clear is nothing more than Leslie's formulation of non-chlorine, MPS shock (potassium monopersulfate with a bunch of other minor additives). I'm not sure what chemistry they are using to check your free chlorine and combine chloramine levels but I can guess that they are probably using a DPD colorimetric test. Your water is probably very low on free chlorine but quite high in combine chloramines (the bad oxidation products of chlorine reacting with organics). The trick this snake-oil salesman is pulling on you is that the DPD-only reagent only measures free chlorine (hypochlorous acid, hypochlorite and any chlorine combined with cyanuric acid). SO it probably shows a very weak pink color or maybe even clear which indicates no free chlorine.

Then the jerk puts in a few granules of MPS shock and, VIOLA!, the solution turns bright pink and he exclaims with the singing of a joyous choir of angels behind him that he has liberated your magically imprisoned chlorine!!! Hallelujah, hallelujah, the chlorine is FREE!!

Well, no. What the MPS shock granules did was oxidize the combine chloramines (monochloramine, dichloramine, etc) to release the chlorine from the combined chloramines which is similar to how the potassium iodide reagent (R-0003) in the Taylor test kit releases the chlorine from the CC's so you can measure them independently from the free chlorine. Once that chlorine is released from the CC's, the DPD indicator turns pink again. The problem is that MPS shock will oxidize the chloramines in your pool water but the chlorine released in that reaction turns into chloride (salt) not free chlorine compounds like hypochlorous acid. So the MPS shock will just lower your CC's, maybe kill a little algae but otherwise not drastically affect your water chemistry.
Click to expand...

This isn't the correct explanation for several reasons. First is that when an oxidizer oxidizes Combined Chlorine (CC) it does NOT generally create Free Chlorine (FC). For example, when chlorine oxidizes monochloramine it ultimately produces chloride salt, not hypochlorous acid. Second is that MPS does not effectively oxidize monochloramine. This paper shows in Table 3 (unfortunately you have to buy the paper) that 200 ppm MPS (in units of Oxone, the triple salt) without a cobalt catalyst results in only 1-3% oxidation of ammonium ion in 4 hours. Likewise, creatinine was not oxidized by MPS without a cobalt catalyst.

Instead what happens when you test water that has MPS in it is that MPS generally registers as CC in a DPD test but in a FAS-DPD test it will register as FC if there is any chlorine present. The reason is that while the MPS at normal dosages doesn't generally react much with DPD directly, it does get reduced by the FAS drops so when you add those in measuring FC you will end up measuring (counting) the MPS as well. HOWEVER, if one adds concentrated MPS to a small test vial, the HUGE amount of MPS will directly react with DPD and be seen as FC. That is, the MPS interference does affect FC if the MPS is in a high enough concentration. This is discussed in the paper I linked to above. So there wasn't a conversion of CC to FC, but rather the MPS at high concentration was directly interfering with the test by measruing as FC.
 
chem geek said:
This isn't the correct explanation for several reasons. First is that when an oxidizer oxidizes Combined Chlorine (CC) it does NOT generally create Free Chlorine (FC). For example, when chlorine oxidizes monochloramine it ultimately produces chloride salt, not hypochlorous acid. Second is that MPS does not effectively oxidize monochloramine. This paper shows in Table 3 (unfortunately you have to buy the paper) that 200 ppm MPS (in units of Oxone, the triple salt) without a cobalt catalyst results in only 1-3% oxidation of ammonium ion in 4 hours. Likewise, creatinine was not oxidized by MPS without a cobalt catalyst.

Instead what happens when you test water that has MPS in it is that MPS generally registers as CC in a DPD test but in a FAS-DPD test it will register as FC if there is any chlorine present. The reason is that while the MPS at normal dosages doesn't generally react much with DPD directly, it does get reduced by the FAS drops so when you add those in measuring FC you will end up measuring (counting) the MPS as well. HOWEVER, if one adds concentrated MPS to a small test vial, the HUGE amount of MPS will directly react with DPD and be seen as FC. That is, the MPS interference does affect FC if the MPS is in a high enough concentration. This is discussed in the paper I linked to above. So there wasn't a conversion of CC to FC, but rather the MPS at high concentration was directly interfering with the test by measruing as FC.
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Obviously I should stay out of The Deep End without my floaties on....

I apologize for that initial hand-waving response. I wrote that post in haste without doing a proper search to find a good chemical explanation as I was really annoyed by the MPS trick and I let that get the better of me. I will edit (if I still can) the original post by me and add a link to your post so anyone reading it can drop down and get the correct chemical explanation.

As I said, I'll refrain from any further paddling in The Deep End :drown:
 
I received my TF-100 test kit today and immediately checked the CYA. I lost sight of the black dot halfway to the 100 line. A few days ago a reluctantly dumped some water and refilled. Couldn't tell you how many gallons, but I stopped draining when the water level was at least 12"-16" below normal level. There is no chlorine and the pH is between 7.6-7.8. Let me guess...drain and refill some more?
 
Yes, more water dilution will likely be needed since your CYA was over 100. You should put at least some chlorine in the pool to prevent algae growth though you will end up throwing some of it out when you do another partial drain/refill.
 
I'm bummed because my TF-100 test kit came w/o the R-0870 Powder for the Chlorine Drop Test. I did another partial drain last night and am waiting for the refill to finish before checking the CYA. Thoughts on Slamming the pool if/when the CYA is over 100? I know it's not recommended but I'm getting kind of desperate with summer vacation in the not to distant future and I won't be around much to keep an eye on the pool (we're planning on getting a pool service to help out). Can someone please explain to me how I can do the CYA test to get a more accurate number so I know what my Slamming amounts should be? I've read of people doing a portion with tap water and then doubling the number, but I'm not fully up to speed on the process. Also, once I have numbers (i.e.: pH, FC, Alk, etc.) and plug them into the calculator in what order do I then use chemicals to treat the pool?

Cheers
 
New Update:

Did another partial drain and refill (3rd time over the past week); still don't know of the exact amount. Added a gallon of 12.5% liq chl during the refill last night. I tested at 11am and made sure the CYA water test was above 70 degrees. Stood with my back to the direct sunlight and made sure the tube was held at waist level and backlit by the pool deck. First try was 90, 2nd and 3rd were 80, and the 4th was 70. I called it 80. I'm wondering about the CH as well, seems our tap water has raised the level on the refills.


FC 1.0
pH 7.4
TA 150
CH 450
CYA 80 (finally under 100)

Advice?

Cheers
 

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Get your FC up to the recommended level in the Chlorine / CYA Chart which would be a minimum FC of 6 ppm.

Your TA is on the high side but if your pH is stable it's OK. With your higher CH your current saturation index is +0.2 (you can calculate that in PoolMath) which is fine, but if your pH were to rise towards 8.0 you could start to get scaling. So keep an eye on the pH and if it tends to rise too quickly and you are adding a lot of acid to keep it down then you can Lower Total Alkalinity if you want to accelerate that process.
 
New Update:

Did another partial drain and refill (3rd time over the past week); still don't know of the exact amount. Added a gallon of 12.5% liq chl during the refill last night. I tested at 11am and made sure the CYA water test was above 70 degrees. Stood with my back to the direct sunlight and made sure the tube was held at waist level and backlit by the pool deck. First try was 90, 2nd and 3rd were 80, and the 4th was 70. I called it 80. I'm wondering about the CH as well, seems our tap water has raised the level on the refills.


FC 1.0
pH 7.4
TA 150
CH 450
CYA 80 (finally under 100)

Advice?

Cheers
 
Septimosprime said:
New Update:

Did another partial drain and refill (3rd time over the past week); still don't know of the exact amount. Added a gallon of 12.5% liq chl during the refill last night. I tested at 11am and made sure the CYA water test was above 70 degrees. Stood with my back to the direct sunlight and made sure the tube was held at waist level and backlit by the pool deck. First try was 90, 2nd and 3rd were 80, and the 4th was 70. I called it 80. I'm wondering about the CH as well, seems our tap water has raised the level on the refills.


FC 1.0
pH 7.4
TA 150
CH 450
CYA 80 (finally under 100)

Advice?

Cheers
Click to expand...
What's the water looking like now, after all the replacement? Do you still plan to SLAM?
 
The water is still cloudy and green. Pretty much suspended, of course, some settles on the bottom but is easily swept. To the best of my knowledge I can't slam until I get the powder for the TF100 test kit. I'm wondering if its acceptable to leave the CYA at that level and throughout the summer/fall top off the water level to replace what's been splashed out? Or should I dump more water to get it down in the 30-50 range?
 
Septimosprime said:
The water is still cloudy and green. Pretty much suspended, of course, some settles on the bottom but is easily swept. To the best of my knowledge I can't slam until I get the powder for the TF100 test kit. I'm wondering if its acceptable to leave the CYA at that level and throughout the summer/fall top off the water level to replace what's been splashed out? Or should I dump more water to get it down in the 30-50 range?
Click to expand...
It's going to take massive amounts of bleach to get ahead of that CYA. But with tiered water rates and fines and penalties, it might just end up cheaper. It's your call.

Just so you know, Johnny's Pool Service on Barranca in Covina sells HASA 12.5% chlorine in returnable jugs. Less to haul, less trash, and nobody will look at you suspiciously if you leave with three cases at a time.
 
So, for S*#$& and giggles I took a water sample to Leslie's to compare to my testing. Everything seemed relatively similar with the exception of the CH. They came up with 170 whilst I turned out a 425, down from a 450 a couple of days ago. I was curious as to what our tap water CH is so I tested it and it came in at 175. Previous Leslie tests show anywhere from 250-530 (I wonder what the TF100 test kit would have come up with?) Just to make sure I'm doing it correctly I'm filling to the 10ml line with pool water, adding 10 drops of 10, 3 drops of 11L, and counting drops of 12 until red turns blue and then multiply that number into 25.

I decided that 80 to 90 for the CYA was still too high so I'm doing one more partial to drop that number. I'm hoping to have the rest of my kit by the end of today so I can slam the snot out of this puppy. I talked to a pool service person today--an acquaintance of the family--to see if he could take care of the pool while I'm working this summer. He mentioned that I need to check the TDS because that could inhibit the chems from taking affect. Also, he said be careful about using liquid chl because its only 10% chl and the rest is filler which contributes to raising the TDS. It was my understanding that it's just water and chl, am I mistaken? He recommended something stronger, but the stronger chl has either calcium or cya, right?
 

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