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Thread: Bonding concern

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    Bonding concern

    We passed bonding inspection in which the bonding wire had to be 4 to 6 inches below grade. In addition, one of the bonding wires ran underground to the equipment pad. Since then we have started to build a grotto and slide and the contractor poured concrete behind the grotto to support the slide and the grotto rocks. When they poured the concrete it went over the pipes and the bonding wire. If we ever have to access those pipes it will obviously be a problem, but my concern now is whether concrete over the copper bonding wire somehow affects the bonding potential of the wire?

    I appreciate any responses.

    Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    No, the concrete over that wire is fine, but that wire should be connected to the re-bar/mesh in the concrete.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Bonding concern

    They didn't use any rebar or mesh. They just poured the concrete. Is that a problem?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    It is a problem if the concrete is within three feet horizontally of human accessible pool water. If it is further away it is fine.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Bonding concern

    yes, that may be a problem.
    33x19, 3'4"-5'6", 7ft spa, baja reef, 14'x9', 18" deep, 10,668 Gal. Quartzite coping, Stonescape Tropics Blue mini-pebble, abalone & glass beads. Jandy Equip.(JXi heater, 2.7HPVS pump, PLC1400 SWG, CV580 filter, Aqualink, LEDs)
    TF-100, Doheny Discovery robot.

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    Re: Bonding concern

    We may be within three feet. They have footings for the slide where they tied some rebar and I think they are going to connect that to the bonding wire. But when they poured the concrete into the ditch they dug, they had no rebar. Please see pictures. One of tehm shows inside teh round tube wehre teh footings are. Now I am very concerned.IMG_1884.jpgIMG_1877.jpgIMG_1891.jpg

    Please explain the issue . Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Bonding concern

    The pool slide stands should also be bonded
    28k gal/raised spa, IG quartzscape, WhistperFlo 2 speed B2984T,DEV60 filter,Lxi400 NG heater, Polaris 280 cleaner, DIY Chlorine injection, Build completion 7/2013

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    Re: Bonding concern

    Ok. But what is the issue about not having rebar inside the cement that is in the ditch
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Propbndr's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    What is going to be on top of the concrete? It looks like quite a drop from the top of the spa to the concrete. With as rough as the concrete is, there must be another surface that is going on top of it.
    Steve
    32 X 16 inground, 17260 gallons, Vinyl Liner, Triton II TR-60 filter,
    Sta-Rite 1hp pump Model #MPRA6E-147L, CircuPool SI-30 Plus SWG, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Bonding concern

    There will be rocks. We are building a grotto with a waterfall. The contractor is telling me if he put rebar inside the cement he would need to bond it but since he did not he doesn't need to. He is bonding all of the metal parts underneath the slide. (You can see those parts in the above pictures). My big question is based on these facts does the cement need to have rebar inside it and if so why? Thanks everyone.
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    I'm not an electrician, I don;t play one on TV and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so my advice is worth what you paid for it.

    Not only do the metal parts need to be bonded, but the bonding grid should surround the pool 3' on all sides. If he doesn't have re-bar in the concrete he should have #8 bare copper under there. You don't' eliminate the need for Equipotential Bonding by eliminating re-bar. Article 680-30 (2) of the National Electrical Code says:
    (2) Perimeter Surfaces. An equipotential bonding grid must
    extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces.
    You can see expamples in Mike Holt’s Illustrated Guide to Understanding the NECŪ Requirements for Article 680 Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations

    He may be right, but I would want him to prove it. He can't just say that's the way I do it, or I've already passed the bonding inspection.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Bonding concern

    Thanks Tim. Just to be clear, my original bonding inspection passed because I did have a bonding grid around the pool, inclduign behind where the grotto will be. And that same grid is still there. It is on top of that concrete. In other words, after I passed inspection, they dug up the area behind where the grotto will be and poured concrete. But the grid behind the grotto is still 6 inches below grade, which is above the concrete. If you look at the above picture, which is sideways, you can see ther grid above the concrete. Does this change your thinking?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    What are they going to do with the wire? Again, I'm not an electrician/expert but it is my understanding that this must be a complete circle around the pool and attached to any metal objects around the pool and attached to any objects that contact the water (heaters, pumps ect.). The idea is that if everything is connected together there can be no potential difference between someone standing on the slab and touching the slide and getting a shock.

    Will that concrete be the finished product, or are they going to add something on top of the concrete that the wire will be imbedded in like sand with pavers?
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Bonding concern

    Tim,

    There will be a complete circle around the pool. That already exists. And the wire around the pool is also attached to all equipment on the pad. In addition, the metal under the slide (see picture of metal in footings) will all be attached to that bonding wire. I think I may have confused some people, but what has happened today is that they dug up behind the grotto and poured concrete behind the grotto, underneath that bonding wire. Esentially, imagine your pool with the bonding wire around it, buried 4-6 inches below grade. Then imagine that you dug a ditch immediately behind the pool and filled it with concrete. On top of the concrete you put rocks, and the bonding wire remains around the pool 4-6 inches deep.

    Do you or Jason or anyone else think the concrete needs to have had REBAR for electrical reasons? I am not sure why they didn't use REBAR to support it (for construction purposes), but am primarily concrend now with any electrical issues.

    Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding concern

    I can't see that it would have to have re-bar. I was just concerned that after the inspection a portion of the circle was being eliminated.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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