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Thread: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

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    Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Have just converted to using 100% liquid Chlorine. Do not want to manually dose so after reading many posts here, have decided to use a stenner pump. Ordered a 220V 45MPHP10 and 15 gallon tank from USWatersystems.com. Went with 220V as I do not have a neutral line out to the pump area and would have difficulty getting one there.

    I have an Ecostar VS pump that I schedule within the pump controller. It is fed from an Intermatic timer, however, I am just using the timer box as a means of ensuring all power to the pump is off when I do maintenance. (no cogs on the timer)

    With the VS pump and a lack of a neutral to the pump area, believe my automation options are limited:

    (1) A Hayward automation system would seem to work best due to its integration with the Ecostar VS pump, however, I've looked at a few of the manuals and they require a neutral line to develop 120, therefore, Hayward is not an option.

    (2) A separate timer on the Stenner pump. Would rely on the timer and the pump clocks staying in sync which would normally not be an issue unless power drops for an extended period of time. I believe the Ecostar pump clock would be fine for some period of time (don't know how long a drop out it can tolerate). If I used a mechanical timer, it would lose sync. Not sure about the digital ones. But in any case, were we gone an extended period of time, it would be possible for the clocks to be out of snyc until we returned. (I know, probably a low likely hood event would could be handled by having a relative on call to rectify.)

    (3) I ran across a thread which discussed using a LIRT220A current controlled relay and a SESTO delay time to: (a) only apply power when the pump was on and (b) control the on time of dosing. Seems like a perfect option for the fixed rate pump.

    So my preference would be (3) given I can find parts and a suitable enclosure but might go with (2) to start with.

    Is there a better option out there?


    Thanks,

    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Looks like you've done your homework.

    I personally think #3 is a little overkill. The chance of the injection timer getting very far out of sync with the main pump is low and then the chance of the amount of bleach being injected into the plumbing hurting anything if it did happen, is even lower. Given that, I'd just get an electronic timer and run the injection pump off that.

    Having said that, I use Insteon modules controlled by an ISY994i to run both the main pump and the injection pump and program them so that the injection pump can't run unless the main pump is running. Even with that setup there's a chance that the module turns on, but the pump doesn't run. But, I'm not too worried about that.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler View Post
    Looks like you've done your homework.

    I personally think #3 is a little overkill. The chance of the injection timer getting very far out of sync with the main pump is low and then the chance of the amount of bleach being injected into the plumbing hurting anything if it did happen, is even lower. Given that, I'd just get an electronic timer and run the injection pump off that.

    Having said that, I use Insteon modules controlled by an ISY994i to run both the main pump and the injection pump and program them so that the injection pump can't run unless the main pump is running. Even with that setup there's a chance that the module turns on, but the pump doesn't run. But, I'm not too worried about that.
    Thanks for the recommendation. I think I will use an Intermatic ET1125CR. Allows 1 minute resolution which since I am using a 10GPD pump will provide control to .85 oz (probably more accurate than the pump) and per manual provides min 2 year battery life.
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Sounds like a good plan to me.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    My equipment is ready for the Stenner pump and tank. Have wired in the timer and an outdoor outlet box and cover. Am going up with my Stenner pump and tank - have built a 24" x 24" platform which will place the top of the tank even with the wall.

    Equipment waiting for Stenner pump and tank


    Timer and outlet


    Received a call informing me the pump and tank are delayed a week. Glad they called but wish I had the pump and tank now.
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Update?
    36k gallon in ground, Hayward 30in sand filter, 2hp Hayward pump, in-line chlorinator. Vinyl from Ohio.

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Will update next week after installing. Pump came on Friday but we are on vacation.

    Gary

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Nice! Might be going down the same path.
    36k gallon in ground, Hayward 30in sand filter, 2hp Hayward pump, in-line chlorinator. Vinyl from Ohio.

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Got back from our 40th anniversary trip on Saturday evening and wasn't going to install the pump until Monday, but I went ahead and installed on Sunday - I guess I had the equivalent of "buck fever".

    Had ordered pump and tank from USWaterSystems. Pump came mounted on the tank with the pickup installed (a good thing too, since my arm would not fit into the tank opening to install it had I purchased the items separately). As an added bonus the package came with a spare pump tube and pump head cover latches. Installation consisted of:

    (1) Removal of four screws from the bracket used to prevent the pump from moving up and down during shipping and then deburring the bracket to allow it to move smoothly.

    (2) Installing a spill recovery line - (a) drilled out one of the hole plugs in the pump head cover with a 7/32" bit, (b) instructions referenced a spill recovery grommet in the tank, but my tank had no hole in the top so I drilled a 1/4" hole, (c) ran a 6" length of the 1/4" line between the pump head cover and the hole in the tank.

    (3) Drilled a 7/16 hole in my return line and tapped with a 1/4" 18-NPT and installed the check valve using 2-3 turns of Teflon tape.

    (4) Hooked up all lines and finger tightened.

    (5) Filled the tank up with all my remaining Chlorine (12 gallons).

    (6) Disconnected the discharge line from the check valve and dropped the line into an empty Chlorine bottle (no shortage of those). Turned the pump on and after chlorine began running into the bottle, shut the pump off and reconnected the line to the check valve.

    (7) Programmed the timer to run for 10 minutes @ 11:00 and 20 minutes at 14:00. This will provide approximately 30 ozs of Chlorine which from usage over the last 9 days is about what the pool is consuming. I split it 1/3 in the morning and 2/3 in the afternoon as a guess on chlorine consumption during the morning and afternoon here in Tucson (probably overkill). Note - I have my pump running from 6am until 5pm at 1600 RPM - provides about 1 turnover per my calculations.

    Stenner Pump and Tank

    The orientation of the pump and tank (pump facing North) is to keep the sun off of the pump. Where the tank and pump are located only gets sun for part of the late morning to early afternoon being shaded by the wall on one side and house on the other.

    Check Valve


    I will monitor FC over the next couple of days and then adjust the pump schedule accordingly. (plus will buy a few gallons of Chlorine to fill up my tank). Also need to get a gate up to keep our new 6 month old Black Lab from chewing on the line and/or check valve. (hasn't yet but when you least expect it....)


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Very nice work! Thanks for posting the details and pics. That will make your pool even more troublefree. Congrats on 40!
    TFP Moderator
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by pooldv View Post
    Very nice work! Thanks for posting the details and pics. That will make your pool even more troublefree. Congrats on 40!
    Thanks - and its hard to believe 40 years has gone by.
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    What would you say was your total investment to automate the liquid chlorine? I am in the Phoenix area and just came to the realaziation that I need to go to 100% liquid chlorine too. Any info you could provide about the process to make it go smoothly would be great.
    13,500 Gallon, In Ground, Pebble, Hayward Micro Clear DE-6000 Filter, Hayward Northstar 1.5HP single speed pump, all original from 1998, city water supply, Rock waterfall. TF100 Test Kit.

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperGTSR6 View Post
    What would you say was your total investment to automate the liquid chlorine? I am in the Phoenix area and just came to the realaziation that I need to go to 100% liquid chlorine too. Any info you could provide about the process to make it go smoothly would be great.
    Viper - my total costs were approximately $1,150. Since this could include some things you don't need or you could find cheaper, I have itemized the items below:

    (1) I began on the TFP journey on 5/1/2015. I had been having yellow/mustard algae issues for some time. I could keep the pool clean looking but the algae would begin growing back on the walls within a week and then I would shock and be ok for another week or two. Occasionally I would use Yellow Out. I finally had enough and found the TFP site. After reading many threads and the pool school, I decided to ditch my pucks and shock and go with the TFP method.

    (2) The first step was getting the TF100 Kit to allow measuring pool chemistry accurately - $81.66, refill of R-871 - $13.05, speedstir - $33.35 for a total of $128.06 (Should have gone with the XL option, would have saved shipping and a refill)

    (3) I first had to partially drain my pool multiple times to reduce my CYA level from 280 until I'm now at 70-75. I will reduce it further some time in the future. In total I drained and replaced about 22,000 gallons. Estimated water cost since I don't have the bill yet based on Feb water bill of $130 for 13500 gallons - $212. Could have just drained my pool and refilled and not used as much water but then I would have need to buy or rent a sump pump and hose. Decided to incrementally reduce CYA.

    (4) I next performed an algae SLAM followed by a mustard/yellow algae SLAM - a total time of 4 days and 7 gallons of CL @ $3.25/gallon - $22.75

    (5) My TA was high therefore I needed a way to aerate the water - SEC 385 waterfall spray pool fountain attached to the return outlets - $22.48 - allows lowering TA level relative to PH (started at 130 and is now at 70-75) I used about 6 gallons of acid at $10.79/2 gallons for a total of $32.37. Total cost to lower TA of $54.85

    (6) Back washed my DE filter - I had DE on hand so it cost me nothing but 7 lbs of DE.

    (7) Automating the liquid chlorine with a Stenner - approx $683.93 consisting of:
    (a) Pump and tank - $398.96 (could be less expensive getting a different tank).
    (b) Intermatic Timer - 139.97
    (c) Outdoor box, weathertight cover and outlet - ~$25.00 (estimate as I didn't record and don't have the receipts)
    (d) Stand - 2x4s, 4x4s, composite 1x6s - ~$120 (estimate as I didn't record and don't have the receipts)

    (8) Initial load of 15 gallons of CL - $48.75

    I have just begun using the Stenner pump to maintain my chlorine levels, although I have been on the TFP method for about two weeks after completing the shock. I can say my pool has never look as clear as it has for the last two weeks and not a sign of yellow algae anywhere.

    If you need any additional info, let me know.


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    I have increase chlorine to about 50 oz of chlorine / day delivered at 10 and 2 for 30 minutes each. For the last two and one half days chlorine has run 8 to 9 ppm every time I have checked and I have checked 3 to 4 times a day. Chlorine consumption has gone up from last week, but then the temp has also increased and been running around 103-105 deg.

    Am going to cut back to checking at the end of the day for the next week or so and if consistent will cut back further.


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Gary,

    What % is the chlorine that you are using? at $3.25ish a gallon i am thinking that you are using store bought chlorine around 5-6%. Lowes here sells liquid chlorine 10% for 3.76 a gallon or about $4.05 after tax.

    I am just trying to gauge my monthly cost of the chlorine to determine if I can take on the chlorine automation project myself.

    I have also pondered if store bought chlorine may be fresher than the liquid chlorine that Lowes sells since it is almost always stored outside in the heat. The chlorine I picked up yesterday was from 5/8/2015 therefore has been sitting in the AZ temps for about a month surely loosing some strength.
    13,500 Gallon, In Ground, Pebble, Hayward Micro Clear DE-6000 Filter, Hayward Northstar 1.5HP single speed pump, all original from 1998, city water supply, Rock waterfall. TF100 Test Kit.

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperGTSR6 View Post
    Gary,

    What % is the chlorine that you are using? at $3.25ish a gallon i am thinking that you are using store bought chlorine around 5-6%. Lowes here sells liquid chlorine 10% for 3.76 a gallon or about $4.05 after tax.

    I am just trying to gauge my monthly cost of the chlorine to determine if I can take on the chlorine automation project myself.

    I have also pondered if store bought chlorine may be fresher than the liquid chlorine that Lowes sells since it is almost always stored outside in the heat. The chlorine I picked up yesterday was from 5/8/2015 therefore has been sitting in the AZ temps for about a month surely loosing some strength.
    I've been predominately buying Walmart HTH Chlorine (10%) that has been running $13.99 for two cartons of two gallons including taxes. The last I bought had a date code of B1465 (believe this means 146th day of 2015, which is May 26th) and the first 12 gallons I loaded had a date code of B1315. I haven't measured the strength but probably should, although the pool math prediction for FC ppm increase with quantity of Chlorine added has matched what I experience which should be a good indication I am using 10% Chlorine. I have bought some from Lowes but was careful to get the latest date code they had - was running me $14.83 including tax for 4 gallons. This site has a "Sticky" in "The TFPC Method" forum titled "Best Places to Buy Liquid Chlorine. For Tucson they list E-Konomy Pool who they list as selling 12% HASA Chlorine in refillable containers for $13.96 for 4 gallons. I have not checked them out yet but will later. They don't mention any one for the Phoenix area.


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperGTSR6 View Post
    Gary,

    What % is the chlorine that you are using? at $3.25ish a gallon i am thinking that you are using store bought chlorine around 5-6%. Lowes here sells liquid chlorine 10% for 3.76 a gallon or about $4.05 after tax.

    I am just trying to gauge my monthly cost of the chlorine to determine if I can take on the chlorine automation project myself.

    I have also pondered if store bought chlorine may be fresher than the liquid chlorine that Lowes sells since it is almost always stored outside in the heat. The chlorine I picked up yesterday was from 5/8/2015 therefore has been sitting in the AZ temps for about a month surely loosing some strength.
    Viper:

    PS - if you are trying to base your decision on chemical costs, and you have been using the 3" tablets, once you get the automated injection in place, the costs should be about the same and maybe a little less. I was using 5 3" tablets a week in the summer @ $1/tablet which is about $21.4/month (assuming 30 day months), plus I was shocking with two 1 lbs packages at least every two weeks at about $3/package for about $12.8/month for a total of ~$34/month. Using liquid chlorine, I'm guessing my highest usage will be 50 oz per day or about 11.7 gallons per month @ $3.25/gal or about $38/month. This is roughly comparable, however, I will contend the TFP method results in better water conditions. With the 3" tablets, I likely did not have enough FC for my high CYA. If I had the TF100 kit, I could probably achieve the same water conditions with the 3" tablets and powdered shock, provided I drained the water to maintain CYA which would add cost.

    I believe the experts on this site indicate the cost for delivered chlorine is about the same between liquid and tablets. Therefore, the decision should be based on which method is easier to maintain sanitary pool conditions. I believe liquid (or SWG) is easier since it doesn't add CYA which complicates maintaining pool conditions. (wish I had known this years ago) I chose not to go with SWG as I didn't want to load my pool up with salt.


    Gary
    Last edited by garyengr; 06-06-2015 at 04:20 PM. Reason: I only used 3" tablets - must be getting old to make a mistake like that!!
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Have been dosing with the Stenner since 5/31 - a total of 9 days. Thought I would post a plot of FC and Dosing levels. One of the things I wondered about when I began the TFP journey was how well the FC level be maintained and how much intervention I would need to do - the less intervention the better. I plan to update this over the next couple of months and will describe any adjustment I have made.



    (1) I returned from vacation on 5/30, and set up the Stenner pump and tank on 5/31 and initially set the schedule to dose at 10:00 for 10 minutes and at 14:00 for 20 minutes for a combined dosing of ~27oz or about 1 ppm (this was based upon usage over the prior week which was cooler weather and likely maintained low from our house sitter. When I measured FC, it was too close to the LCL (Lower Control Limit) and I turned the pump on and added ~53oz or 2ppm at the end of the day thus the spike from 6.5 to 9.5 ppm (note - from 14:00 through 17:00 I added 80 oz of Chlorine or about 3 ppm).

    (2) On 6/1 it was obvious that the 27 oz of Chlorine is inadequate to maintain FC at the target of 8ppm. I increased the schedule to 30 minutes at 10:00 and 14:00 providing ~53 oz or 2 ppm. From the chart, this appears to have worked fine for 6/2 and 6/3.

    (3) We had a severely overcast day on 6/4 where the FC climbed from 9 to 11 ppm - no apparent decrease of FC from the daylight. I shut the pump off on 6/5 to allow FC to drop.

    (4) On 6/6 I lowered the schedule by 5 minutes each thus netting ~22 oz at 10:00 and 14:00 for a total of ~1.6 ppm / day. I have maintained this schedule and the FC has maintained 8.5 ppm by the end of the day. I plan to maintain this schedule until it is apparent the FC is drifting in the wrong direction. I am also only making measurements now at the end of the day - ~19:00, while previously I was making measurements up to 4 Xs per day.


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    That's one dadgum nice equipment pad btw.
    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
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    Re: Getting Prepared to Install a Stenner

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyp View Post
    That's one dadgum nice equipment pad btw.
    Thanks - didn't happen by design, happened because I got tired of pack rats undermining the previous precast concrete equipment pads and chewing all the insulation out of a heater. Got rid of the heater as we didn't use it much and then had brick pavers put in to make digging difficult for the pack rats.


    Gary
    20,000 gal IG Plaster Irregular Shaped Pool (1987), Hayward SP3400VSP Ecostar Pump, Hayward Pro-Grid 60 SqFt DE Filter, Hayward Pool-Vac Ultra, TF100, Speed Stir, Stenner Pump & 15 Gallon Tank, Oasis Z5, and LA Spas H.E.E.T Model

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