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Thread: Bioactive technical process.

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    Bioactive technical process.

    Jose, thanks for posting to help us better understand the product. Could you give some information on the details of how bioactive works?

    I think that the 8 oz bag contains about 2 grams of bacteria. Is that correct?

    If yes, does the bacteria multiply, or does the 2 grams do all of the work?

    If it multiplies, what is the growth rate, how much ends up in the water and why would one need more than one bag?

    The literature indicates that ammonia is a byproduct. Should a user expect to get ammonia or combined chlorine in the water?

    The literature also shows the ammonia getting broken down. Is there only one type of bacteria or are there different types that handle the cyanuric acid in stages?

    Thanks for any assistance you can provide in helping users get the best results from the product.

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Jose,

    We are already aware of how different combinations of bacteria can degrade Cyanuric Acid as described in the section "CYA Degradation by Bacteria" in the thread Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA). We are also aware of the BiOWiSH patent application 20140342437 wherein a mixture of aerobic Bacillius and anaerobic Lactobacillus bacteria or other combinations are used.

    What is unclear is how the bacteria are able to survive in the presence of chlorine since generally planktonic bacteria are killed very quickly by chlorine. There are many soil bacteria that have cyanuric acid hydrolase, and I found this paper that refers to reduction (as in reducing amount; it's technically an oxidation reaction) of ammonia by Lactobacillus.

    As noted in the thread It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine CYA-->Ammonia, we have had reports (including that one in my own pool) where CYA is lowered or eliminated and ammonia is found in its place or at other times no ammonia is found. We have presumed that this might be from biodegradation of the bacteria, but there are some who say this cannot happen because the pool conditions would not be anaerobic enough particularly for the first stage of breakdown of cyanuric acid. What are your thoughts on this?

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Welcome again Jose.

    Looking forward to your posts...
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    I have a few questions... If it's been posted, can someone direct me to it. I didn't seem to find it.

    1) How long does the BioActive remain "active" in the pool, with all things taken into account (temp, sunlight, cya, etc..)?

    2) At what point (CYA level per bag per gallons) does the bacteria not feed on CYA anymore?

    3) After using a bag, and your CYA drops into "your" preferred range, is there anyway to manually stop the process? eg; over chlorinate?

    4) If using a puck feeder (or floater), can this product be used simultaneously to keep everything in balance for entire season?

    5) Can it be dumped into the pool at end of the season, during closing, and let the bacteria work over the winter?

    I've been trying for 2 years to get a friend off the pucks, but he won't seem to budge on the bleach idealogy. This product may help him in the long run.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Most of these questions don't have answers yet. But I'll guess a little and give some likely answers.

    1) It varies, as long as conditions are good for the bacteria to reproduce. Lots of things can cut it off. I've heard ten days, but I doubt it is at all uniform.
    2) See #1. (i.e. it varies)
    3) Yes, raise the FC level reasonably high. Something short of shock level should do it.
    4) Yes, and no. FC has to be lowered for CYA reducer to work, and then it chomps on CYA for days with no swimming allowed, so it is far from seamless (even if there aren't any problems with the product).
    5) No idea how reliable that would be.

    Again, lot of educated guessing here, but I'll bet I am at least close.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Thanks for the quick response. I guess if this product is what they say it is, then you can probably get away with a puck feeder for the season, then use this stuff a few weeks before closing to bring the CYA back down. That also depends on your season, mine is only 4-5 months at best, more like 4.

    I have to admit, dumping liquid chlorine everyday is pretty easy, but the pucks sure make it easier. Also, less product (bulk) to store and handle. Too bad no one has figured out how make Lithium pucks that erode like Trichlor does.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Like everyone, I am interested in this product. That said, I remain skeptical.

    There seems like a lot of parameters to be met that the average Joe is just not gonna' get right. Additionally, at $60 a pop, the average Joe can drain roughly 10K from his pool and save money.......just sayin.

    It will certainly have a place in the market if the results can be determined to be consistent but there seems to be a lot of jumping onto a mostly unknown bandwagon.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    at $60 a pop, the average Joe can drain roughly 10K from his pool and save money.
    I fall into the camp of those that would find this CYA reducer actually less expensive. Each drain/refill to just below returns costs me $ 97 each, so double what an 8 oz bag of this stuff could do.

    There's also the cost of getting chemistry re-balanced. I'm lucky my water has perfect TA and PH but no calcium, so there is that to consider too, cost wise.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    I just read the 12 page product booklet on the solarsunrings site and found it interesting that they mention several times to have adequate sanitizer in your pool. I was under the impression that the less chlorine in the pool the better, however it appears based on that reading that one would actually want the 2-3 ppm of free chlorine. I was also told when I called the company it is recommended to not add any other products to the pool while the bioactive is working. For us that would mean not adding any bleach/chlorine. Not sure if the "maintain adequate sanitizer" is just a stander warning that goes on every pool product or it is actually necessary in the bioactive process.

    Jose can you advise if it is better to add chlorine to maintain the 2-3ppm or not put anything in the pool while bioactive is working?
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    My understanding is that FC of 2-3 is the max at the start, and then you don't add any more chlorine while it is working. It should naturally help prevent algae.

    I took the "maintain adequate sanitizer" statement as not applying during the process of lowering CYA. Though I agree that it doesn't exactly say that.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    I've read that too and they don't want you above 4ppm MAX chlorine for sure.
    So I will get mine to 3 ppm before I do anything.

    The cya reducer arrives any day now but water temp is 58 degrees now, so I need to
    wait until the sunny days come back and use solar panels to get the water up to the recommended 65 before
    I start.
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    Jose, thanks for posting to help us better understand the product. Could you give some information on the details of how bioactive works?
    Certainly! I'll do so by answering your questions;

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    I think that the 8 oz bag contains about 2 grams of bacteria. Is that correct?
    The product is not formulated to achieve a weight of bacteria. It is formulated around a required activity level based on the industry measure of cfu (colony forming units). There are many ways the industry quotes bacteria weights and most always include some carrier or residual fermentation nutrients and therefore are not really helpful. The true weight of the bacteria itself would actually be even less than 2gm.

    Because of this, we always recommend to apply the full quantity of each bag even if the body of water is relatively small.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    If yes, does the bacteria multiply, or does the 2 grams do all of the work?
    We have studied this particular process and there is a small amount of multiplication that occurs after dosing however in microbiological terms it is not significant and essentially it is the organism content that is originally dosed to the pool that does the work. This analysis was done as part of the overall safety and regulatory assessments for the product. Like many other questions that follow and like much that you deal with on your site – no 2 pools are identical in terms of water chemistry, temperature etc. As Bio-Active™ Cyanuric Acid Reducer is a biological product these variables all have an impact on the exact outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    If it multiplies, what is the growth rate, how much ends up in the water and why would one need more than one bag?
    As we have said there is only limited growth. In most cases where starting CYA levels are up to 250ppm a single 8oz bag will be sufficient to treat a pool up to 25,000 gallons and should yield a final CYA level <100ppm. For pools with CYA levels above this level it is possible a second treatment may be necessary. This can be due to 2 reasons: (1) a limitation of the nutrients required to biologically degrade the CYA; or (2) the micro-organisms being inactivated by the released unbound free chlorine.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    The literature indicates that ammonia is a byproduct. Should a user expect to get ammonia or combined chlorine in the water?
    It is true that ammonia is a byproduct of decomposition of CYA however the product is formulated to contain the enzyme chemistry to also break down ammonia and in certain circumstances also residual nitrates. In most conditions there should be no increase in ammonia levels and it is not uncommon to observe reductions in pre-treatment ammonia levels. Similarly combined chlorine levels have not been measured to show any increase and in some cases have been reduced. I should also add that this process is very similar to some decomposition of matter in nature. Similar byproducts are formed and nature handles it the same as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    The literature also shows the ammonia getting broken down. Is there only one type of bacteria or are there different types that handle the cyanuric acid in stages?
    The product is formulated using a number of species and individual strains with specific functionality in nitrogen management (I will refer these as "microbes" in our posts for convenience sake).

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    Thanks for any assistance you can provide in helping users get the best results from the product.
    You are certainly welcome! I was surprised to leave for the weekend and come back to so many inquiries! Great to know there are so many interested people and we are eager to help.

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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    1) How long does the BioActive remain "active" in the pool, with all things taken into account (temp, sunlight, cya, etc..)?
    This one definitely depends somewhat on the water conditions. As a general rule 7-10 days is the active period for the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    2) At what point (CYA level per bag per gallons) does the bacteria not feed on CYA anymore?
    In most cases this occurs when the CYA is reduced to between 40-60ppm and the oxidative potential of the chlorine increases and deactivates the product. We have used this feedback loop between the CAR product, CYA and chlorine, to ensure that CYA levels are not reduced below the safe level when chlorine levels are maintained above 1ppm or more during treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    3) After using a bag, and your CYA drops into "your" preferred range, is there anyway to manually stop the process? eg; over chlorinate?
    Due to the point above this is unnecessary. In fact if you put 10X the required dose this feedback loop works so well you end up a virtually the same place – so no risk of overdosing and why we can safely use 8oz for any pool up to 25,000G.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    4) If using a puck feeder (or floater), can this product be used simultaneously to keep everything in balance for entire season?
    Yes however we would recommend a puck be removed from the pool when first applying the product. No issues with floaters. We recommend using the product as required when CYA levels are >100ppm.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    5) Can it be dumped into the pool at end of the season, during closing, and let the bacteria work over the winter?
    You can however the active period will still only be in the 10 day range. As a biological product everything is slower at colder water temps so it will last a little longer however it also take a little longer to work however certainly within 2 weeks or so there would be no residual action.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    Jose,

    We are already aware of how different combinations of bacteria can degrade Cyanuric Acid as described in the section "CYA Degradation by Bacteria" in the thread Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA). We are also aware of the BiOWiSH patent application 20140342437 wherein a mixture of aerobic Bacillius and anaerobic Lactobacillus bacteria or other combinations are used.

    What is unclear is how the bacteria are able to survive in the presence of chlorine since generally planktonic bacteria are killed very quickly by chlorine. There are many soil bacteria that have cyanuric acid hydrolase, and I found this paper that refers to reduction (as in reducing amount; it's technically an oxidation reaction) of ammonia by Lactobacillus.

    As noted in the thread It Can Happen to Anyone - Zero Chlorine CYA-->Ammonia, we have had reports (including that one in my own pool) where CYA is lowered or eliminated and ammonia is found in its place or at other times no ammonia is found. We have presumed that this might be from biodegradation of the bacteria, but there are some who say this cannot happen because the pool conditions would not be anaerobic enough particularly for the first stage of breakdown of cyanuric acid. What are your thoughts on this?

    Richard
    The chlorine resistance we have achieved with this product is due to a number of factors: (1) we are targeting situations in which chlorine activity is suppressed due to high CYA; (2) specific strain selection of the organisms; (3) BiOWiSH uses a proprietary manufacturing process through which its organisms are conditioned to resist certain chemical exposures.

    You are absolutely right on the occasional accelerated natural processes that can degrade nitrogenous based compounds. Note that these cases are generally at nil or low chlorine levels. The benefit of the CAR product is that you can achieve this result while maintaining safe sanitizer levels. It is a case of getting the correct nutrient profile and organism type and concentration. Given enough time CYA does naturally break down however it is very slow in typical swimming pool conditions.

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick_B View Post
    Welcome again Jose.

    Looking forward to your posts...
    Patrick,
    Thank you for the opportunity to post. There are some great questions and discussion points being raised so we will do our best to keep up our end and provide as much detail as we can. As this is a new product we are needless to say more than keen to ensure users have a positive experience with the product. That in mind we would first like to direct any interested users to the industry education materials we have made available:

    1. How to use card: http://bioactivenow.com/link/1
    2. Technical Bulletin #1 – “Tips for Testing CYA Accurately”: http://bioactivenow.com/link/2
    3. Technical Bulletin #2 – “How to decide if a pool is suitable for treatment with CAR?”: http://bioactivenow.com/link/3
    4. Technical Bulletin #3 – “I used Bio-Active™ Cyanuric Acid Reducer and did not get the result I expected – What Now?”: http://bioactivenow.com/link/4

    These will provide all users with enough knowledge to ensure they can successfully use the product. The last document is particularly interesting as it details every situation we have identified in which the product may not perform or the result may not be measured accurately. Extensive field testing has taught us a great deal. Through now thousands of tests we have not found a single pool that we could not reduce to <100ppm other than when due to one of the issues identified in that document.

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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Wow, Jose, that was some in depth answering of all our questions. I am not a puck user and do not have a CYA buildup issue, but I thank you very much! Now I can pass along some of this info to a friend that has been on pucks for years. Hopefully he takes this advice better than the liquid chlorine advice. If I may, one more question please... What is the shelf life of the product?
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Great information, thanks Jose.
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  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    With less than 2 grams of microbes and about 15 lbs of cyanuric acid being converted, that means that each microbe consumes thousands of times its weight in cyanuric acid. That seems like quite a lot.

  18. Back To Top    #18
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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Presumably they reproduce.
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  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Jose wrote

    "We have studied this particular process and there is a small amount of multiplication that occurs after dosing however in microbiological terms it is not significant and essentially it is the organism content that is originally dosed to the pool that does the work."

    Assuming 1 gram of microbes will remove 150 ppm cya in 25,000 gallons, that's 14,000 times the weight of the microbes.

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    Re: Bioactive technical process.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI poolguy View Post
    If I may, one more question please... What is the shelf life of the product?
    Certainly! 3 years when sealed in original packaging.

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