Bio-Active CYA Reducer trial

[JasonLion]

The CYA works at any temperature above freezing, but you may need to modify your procedure for cold water samples. To avoid the modified instructions, we normally say to warm up the sample first. The test requires enough reaction time between adding the reagent and viewing the sample. When the water is warm it can happen in the required 30 seconds of mixing. When the water is cold it takes longer. You can either warm it up in advance, or leave it to react for an extra minute after the 30 seconds of mixing, then mix again for 10 seconds at the end right before doing the view tube. If the water is really seriously cold that can be two extra minutes.

 

[Rflasck]

Thanks JasonLion. I'll try that in a couple of hours and post the results.

Richard

 

[Rflasck]

Day 4 CYA re-do: Better news!

I re-tested the CYA level at Day 4 when the air temp was 68F, the clouds were gone and the sun was out.

The sample temp was about 80F. I ran 2 tests at each of 2 different dilution levels. Sun behind me; Test column held at waist level. Samples were shaken for 30 sec, then left to rest for 60 seconds, then shaken for 10 second, then tested.

8:1 dilution:
Two measurements were made. Raw numbers from the column were about 35 both times. So the estimated CYA was 280.

4:1 dilution:
Two measurements were made. Raw numbers from the column were about 90 both times. So the estimated CYA was 360.

So the Day 4 average CYA reading was 320. Clearly this is a tweaky measurement very dependent on dilution & mixing procedures, lighting conditions and sample temperature.

So to summarize:
Day 0: ~ 700
Day 2: 640
Day 3: 520
Day 4: 320

Looks like it’s comin’ down! And still no algae!

Richard

 

[heugeneo]

Day 4 CYA re-do: Better news!

I re-tested the CYA level at Day 4 when the air temp was 68F, the clouds were gone and the sun was out.

The sample temp was about 80F. I ran 2 tests at each of 2 different dilution levels. Sun behind me; Test column held at waist level. Samples were shaken for 30 sec, then left to rest for 60 seconds, then shaken for 10 second, then tested.

8:1 dilution:
Two measurements were made. Raw numbers from the column were about 35 both times. So the estimated CYA was 280.

4:1 dilution:
Two measurements were made. Raw numbers from the column were about 90 both times. So the estimated CYA was 360.

So the Day 4 average CYA reading was 320. Clearly this is a tweaky measurement very dependent on dilution & mixing procedures, lighting conditions and sample temperature.

So to summarize:
Day 0: ~ 700
Day 2: 640
Day 3: 520
Day 4: 320

Looks like it’s comin’ down! And still no algae!

Richard

Glad to see you are getting some results!

Just wanted to point out (unless I'm doing the dilution tests wrong) that you need to multiply the number by the total of the parts. So with a 4:1 dilution you got 90, you would multiply that by 5, not 4. So your results for day 4 should be 8:1 - 315 and 4:1 - 450, for an average of 383.

If this is not right somebody please correct it, because I'll need to recalculate all my numbers

 

[JasonLion]

heugeneo is correct about the multiplier. The numbers are a little different, but the overall result is still the same, CYA is going down significantly.

 

[Rflasck]

heugeneo is correct about the multiplier. The numbers are a little different, but the overall result is still the same, CYA is going down significantly.

Ah! Good point fellas. To be clear, when I said 8:1 what I meant was 1 part of original pool water in a total of 8 parts of sample. So it was really 1 part pool water and 7 parts tap water.

Same thing with my "4:1" : it was 1 part pool water to 3 parts tap water.

So my estimates were right, but I experssed my ratios incorrectly. Sorry 'bout that. Therefore, my CYA calculated results were actually in accordance with your algorithm. So the numbers in the summary are correct. I plotted it in Excel. It makes a nice looking curve. Can't wait to see tomorrow's numbers.

Richard

 

[heugeneo]

Did you just do one 8 oz. bag for the initial?

 

[Rflasck]

Hi heugeneo,

Yes. I dumped one 8 oz pouch into my skimmer, as Biowish recommended. On their website, they have a substantial bit of semi-technical literature that can be downloaded.

After reading all their literature (data sheets, FAQs, brochures, etc), I decided to find out what one pouch would do. The bag is suppose to handle pools up to 25K sf,; my pool is only 10K.

I'm a big believer in empirical results over theoretical arguments. However, my understanding is that the bacteria in the product just keeps eating the CYA until it is down to a certain starvation level (somewhere below 100 ppm) and then the bacteria dies from lack of food. It that is the mechanism, then I figured that one pouch or multiple pouches should result in about the same final CYA level. Since the bacteria does not multiply, perhaps multiple pouches would bring the CYA level down faster, but that the final CYA level would probably be the same. My understand could be wrong. Maybe, Jose, the Biowish guy in another thread could comment.

Of course, the pool store guy told me that with such an elevated CYA, I should immediately use multiple pouches, but could supply no supporting data sheets, use sheets or reports to support his recommendation. So I decided to make a detailed trial run using one pouch. If the final CYA level stabilizes out at over 100 ppm, then I’ll consider throwing in a second pouch.

Richard

 

[jblizzle]

You need to post up that plot

 

[Rflasck]

You need to post up that plot

View attachment 35547

The plot should be shown above. Hopefully it is.

Richard

 

[JasonLion]

However, my understanding is that the bacteria in the product just keeps eating the CYA until it is down to a certain starvation level (somewhere below 100 ppm) and then the bacteria dies from lack of food. It that is the mechanism, then I figured that one pouch or multiple pouches should result in about the same final CYA level. Since the bacteria does not multiply, perhaps multiple pouches would bring the CYA level down faster, but that the final CYA level would probably be the same. My understand could be wrong. Maybe, Jose, the Biowish guy in another thread could comment.

Jose explained in another topic that the bacteria create catalytic enzymes, and it is the enzymes that actually break down the CYA.

 

[Rflasck]

Day 5 results:
Sampling and measurement regime same as Day 4.

Water temp 70F; water clear – no algae
FC=2.0 (adjusted up to 3.0 after testing)
CYA (average of 4 readings at 2 dilutions): 330 ppm

We may have used up all the bacteria? We’ll see from tomorrow’s reading.

View attachment 35559

Richard

 

[Rflasck]

Day 6 results:
Water temp 70F; Water clear – no algae
FC: 3.5
PH: 7.6

CYA readings done using standard dilution, mixing and measurement procedures:
Using 1 part pool water and 3 parts tap water:
2 separate measurements using Taylor K-2006: 400
1 measurement using test strip: 400
Using 1 part pool water and 7 parts tap water:
2 separate measurements using Taylor K-2006: 400
1 measurement using test strip: 320
Average CYA reading: 390

Observations and summary of results so far:

Algae: Usually I have to run FC at 20 ppm to avoid algae. With the BA-CYA reducer, amazingly, no algae was detected at a FC 0f 3 after 6 days. My conclusion is that the mere presence of the BA-CTA reducer inhibits algae growth.

Testing: At my elevated CYA levels, even with careful dilution and careful testing techniques, the precision of the testing is not great. Reading precision is strongly impacted by sample temperature, mixing techniques, and ambient brightness during the “disappearing black dot test.” However, I believe my averaged readings fairly represent the true CYA levels +/- 20percent.

Effect of BA-CYA reducer: The product has reduced my CYA from about 700 ppm to about 400 ppm over the course of this 6 day test. The CYA reduction action stopped after 4 days.

Future action: Today (Day 6) I will add another 8 oz pouch of BA-CYA reducer, and continue daily testing for another week (or until there is no further CYA level reduction).

View attachment 35578




Richard

 

[rodog123]

Love the data, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to what the next 10 days bring.

Just to recap, the company sent you another bag for free correct?

 

[Rflasck]

Love the data, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to what the next 10 days bring.

Just to recap, the company sent you another bag for free correct?

I wish! No, I have been buying the pouches retail at the local pool store for about $50 each.

I did put in the second pouch yesterday. I'll post today's results in a few hours.

Richard

 

[heugeneo]

If they're handing out extra bags for free sign me up! So far I'm at $65 x 3!

Rflasck, in case you didn't catch it in my thread don't use an algaecide, it put a screeching halt to my progress. Doesn't look like you were planning on it, but just in case.

 

[Rflasck]

Day 7 results:

I put in my second pouch at the end of Day 6. The following results were taken mid-day on Day 7:

Water 70F, clear, no algae

FC = 3.0
PH = 7.4 (adjusted with Borox up to 7.6 after Day 7 tresting)
TA = 175
CH = 600

CYA results:
Average of 6 readings at 3 different dilution levels using the Taylor K-2006 and test stripe = 320

View attachment 35624

Additional comments:

Although the BA-CAR instructions and tips are somewhat scattered throughout several disparate documents from BA, I read them all before proceeding.

In summary:
You are not suppose to cover the pool for 7 days before or after adding the CAR.
You are not to add Polyquat (sp?) or metal based sanitizers before or during the treatment.
The PH should be in the normal range before and during the treatment.
The chlorine level is to be between 2 and 3 before and during the treatment. Not zero and not >5.
BA is a little ambiguous about whether or not to add chlorine during the treatment. They say to "maintain" the chlorine level between 2 and 3. I interpreted that to mean I should add a bit of Clorox when needed to maintain the target range. I did so.
I did not see where BA said anything (pro or con) about adjusting the PH during the treatment. During the treatment, I have been occasionally adding Borox as necessary to maintain a PH between 7.4 and 7.6. The PH in my pool tends to slowly drift down (become more acidic) over time.

Other comments:

1) heugeneo, I stopped using any sanitizers except chlorine in my pool years ago, so there is no copper, silver, or organic sanitizer in my water. The copper stuff turned my white plastic pool sweep purple about 10 years ago, so I stopped using it, and just upped the chlorine levels.
2) I suspect for the last several years, my CYA level has been 500+ (while my pool store has been telling me it was 150). During swimming season, the pool was used almost daily by me, my kids and my grandkids, and there have been no complaints, or adverse reactions. So I'm not OCDing about getting my CYA below 100.
3) I believe "chlorine lock" is a myth. I have kept a clean, clear pool for the last several years (when the CYA was presumably >500) by just running chlorine levels >15. Again, there were no adverse reactions from any of the pool users.
4) During this BA-CAR trial, I've been running tight FC levels of 3.0, expecting a major algae bloom to explode onto the scene. In the past if I ran FC levels below 5 for a week, my pool would turn into a swamp. But during this treatment test, the pool has remained sparkling clean for over a week at the FC levfel of 3.0. I can only conclude that the BA-CAR itself inhibits algae.
5) I hope with the second bag, my CYA levels will get to <100, but we'll have to wait and see.
6) Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

Richard

 

[JasonLion]

Rflasck, thank you for your continued reporting.

One trivial side comment, no metal based system is a sanitizer for pools. At best metal based systems qualify as algaecides.

 

[Rflasck]

Rflasck, thank you for your continued reporting.

One trivial side comment, no metal based system is a sanitizer for pools. At best metal based systems qualify as algaecides.

Ah! OK. Sorry for the incorrect terminology. I believe BA says there should be no metals like copper or silver in the pool water. Last time I had to battle an major algae bloom The pool store sold me a blue liquid that had copper in it. That's what turned my pool sweep purple. So chlorine kills aglae and other stuff like germs and is called a sanitizer. And the copper stuff kills algae (but I guess not other bugs?) and is called an algaecide? Is that the correct understanding and terminology?

 

[JasonLion]

Yep.

We don't recommend any of the products containing copper.

To be a sanitizer the compound needs to kill a number of different disease transmitting bacteria and viruses at a specified minimum rate. Copper has some small effect, but the kill rate for copper is way way too low to qualify. Copper is effective against algae. We don't recommend it because chlorine is also very effective against algae and copper tends to cause stains that are difficult to remove and turn blond hair green.