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Thread: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

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    Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    My spa is raised about 40" above the pool. Prior to remodeling my air intake was just beyond the pool deck raised about 8" above ground level with a one-way valve built in. inlet was pointing toward the ground. Not a lot of bubbles so thought to use a 1.5hp Silencer blower. For asthetics I moved the air line about 40' to the equipment area. Removed the one-way valve and attached a 2" pipe to the equipment area ending about 10" above the water line. Attached a 1/4 lb one way valve. Water level was lowered enough to drain the air inlet pipe (used compressed air to clear) as it was filled with water. NO air at jets at all. Added the blower directly to the valve got some air from only one of the 4 jets then the motor overheated. I'm pretty sure the hartford loop would help but thought it should work as describe alibi inefficiently.
    Wit a one way valve above the water line how the the hartford loop help? The pump is a pentair intelliflo VS set at 3200 rpm when in spa mode. 100 CuFt DE filter pressure go from 10lbs (2300 rpm pool mode) to about 25 lbs. Seems like a lot

    If I need the loop. from 1' above water level (one-way valve included), once it turns down - do I need to go all the way to the ground before returning vertical? if not then how far from the top of the loop do I need to go (toward the ground) so as to make the hartford valve most efficient? Then back up to some point to attach the blower. Is the standard 1' enough

    Thanks for listening.

    Marino

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    Why do you have the one way valve? Even 1/4 lb is a lot for an air line. There shouldn't be any need for a one way valve or a hartford loop as long as the equipment pad is above the spa water level.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    It is usually a good idea to have a Hartford loop in every setup but when the air vent is as long as 40' it is almost imperative that you have one unless the air line is sloped upward from the spa. But even then, the pipe would still fill to the water level of the spa and given it is 40" off the deck, that is a lot of water for the venturi's to clear.

    However, Hartford loops should be plumbed as close to the spa as possible. The spa wall is ideal but I don't think that is possible in this case. Plumbing the loop at the pad is useless so don't bother with that. The most important thing is that the loop raise above water level to prevent water from going any further up the air pipe. After that, it really doesn't matter much what you do with the pipe. The reason they normally use a loop, is because it is built into the spa wall so there is no other choice than to use a loop.

    Also, 25 PSI is not that high of pressure for spa jets so you could go full speed with the VS and it might help clear the line.

    Also, a larger air line after the loop might help some too. There is friction loss with air vents as well albeit not as much as water.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    Thank you both for your comments.

    TFP Expert. Are you saying that if I use the blower at a level higher than the sap waterline I can just let the line fill up and not use a valve. As mentioned by Jason Lion is the valve spring too strong in the air valve at 1/4 lb? That is the one that came with the Silencer.

    I'm thinking of trying to return the vent to the spa but cannot do a proper loop as the spa is too high and the loop would be unsightly. The vent was looped at the spa about 1' above grade with an air valve at the opening originally, but I wanted more air than what I was getting and was told the blower was the way too go. The original valve was white unnamed but white and shaped like a hayward. Never leaked just not good bubbles.

    Tried a loop at the pad, a larger pipe for more volume and still the 1.5hp blower only last 12 minutes (best I could get without drilling relief holes in the lines which I have not done as it seems to defeat the purpose. Probably a smaller blower or different brand would be better if I'm still pointed to using one at all. I could re-plumb all the way back to the spa with 2.5 or 3" pipe but not sure is that will really help any as it will only allow the system to Hold more air but i don't really see that helping as the actual flow at the blower will not be any greater so probably still overheat. I would if someone could convince me as the lawn is still all chopped up anyway.

    Do either of you know where to get a lighter air valve if indeed the 1/4 lb is too great. Is the Air Supply a good valve

    All ideas are welcome and will be tried as i can do this myself so no great expense other than parts.

    Thanks for your time and trouble on this

    Marino
    14,000 gallon pool and above ground spa combo
    Remodeled with a modified Blue Granite Pebble Sheen.
    Pentair intelliflo VS, 100 CuFt DE filter, EasyTouch Control salt system
    RayPac 400,000 btu propane heater
    Silencer 1.5hp blower, Great White Pool Vac

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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    1/4 is the norm. I think your issue is height of spa. 40 inches is high, and if you're pipe is a foot under grade, then that's about 4 feet that the blower needs to push water up (much harder than just pushing water horizontal. Then you add your 40 feet.

    I would try the 1/4 check valve as close as possible to the spa. The loop would be the most reliable long term as it cannot fail if set up right the first time.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    Does the blower overheat if it is not on the air vent line?

    But I would agree that the issue really is the height of the spa and it might help to have the check valve as close to the spa as possible but the rest of the line needs to be clear of water too. The blower may not be able to clear the line because it doesn't have enough power to lift the water. A larger blower may be required, especially if you keep the 40' run.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    I may have been misleading. The blower clears the line just fine with the check valve directly below the blower. Problem is that it just shuts off in 12 minutes (longest its made it). I'm thinking it's too much HP

    So, Does it make any difference to put the check valve close to the spa or by the blower? I would think that it would not matter much at least if using a blower as the lines should not fill up regardless as long as the check valve doesn't leak!

    Thanks

    If I ditch the blower and attach a check valve at the spa at the end of a loop (1' above grade) and eliminate the 40' of tubing will that be my best bet or try some holes in the blower piping?
    Last edited by marinoperna; 04-24-2015 at 05:33 PM. Reason: measurement mistake
    14,000 gallon pool and above ground spa combo
    Remodeled with a modified Blue Granite Pebble Sheen.
    Pentair intelliflo VS, 100 CuFt DE filter, EasyTouch Control salt system
    RayPac 400,000 btu propane heater
    Silencer 1.5hp blower, Great White Pool Vac

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    The check valve should be as close to the spa as possible so there is less water to remove from the air line. The idea is to stop the air pipe from filling with water as much as possible. But if the blower is clearing the line where the check valve is anyway, then it really doesn't matter.

    Added the blower directly to the valve got some air from only one of the 4 jets then the motor overheated.
    But this sounds like the blower is not clearing the lines.


    But if the blower is clearing the air line, then it should not shut off like that. It isn't an issue of two much HP, it sounds more like an issue of heat dissipation. The only time it might overheat is if there is a restriction of air flow around the motor so it isn't cooling off or there may be something wrong with the motor or fan that is causing an overload of the motor.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    Some blowers cool themselves using the same air they are blowing through the pipe. If the pipe is blocked they won't be able to cool themselves.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Pool with raised sp - spa jets not working correctly

    Fixed it!

    Although the exploded view does not show them there are some gaskets behind the jets that were missing on 2. Replaced them and the spa works great. Makes all the sense in the world the water pressure was far greater than the air pressure causing the motor to overheat. Now that the air flows the blower will never shut off (at least by itself from overheating).

    Thanks to all that offered suggestions

    Marino
    14,000 gallon pool and above ground spa combo
    Remodeled with a modified Blue Granite Pebble Sheen.
    Pentair intelliflo VS, 100 CuFt DE filter, EasyTouch Control salt system
    RayPac 400,000 btu propane heater
    Silencer 1.5hp blower, Great White Pool Vac

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