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Thread: Home run to returns

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    Home run to returns

    My contract states that my returns are all home runs. My pool has five returns. Two are in the shallow end very close to each other (maybe three feet or so). Two are in the deep end very close to each other and one is on its own. The PB is doing the plumbing today and I noticed that he connected the two returns in the shallow end to each other with a u shaped pipe and from there he will run to the pad I am guessing. Do you think when it says my returns are home runs they meant that the returns very close to each other would be connected? Should I care? I don't want to force them to make these close returns home runs if there is no real benefit for me.

    Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Home run to returns

    If you get three separate pipe you are doing reasonably well. Personally, I wouldn't push this specific point. However, if the contract says all home runs, that is not what they are doing.

    Perhaps you can use this for leverage on a different issue.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    Seems like more trouble than it is worth. And a lot more valves. We have 6 returns on one big loop around the pool back to the pad and one waterfall line. One valve to control mix between returns/waterfal.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    I appreciate the quick response.

    Ok. I will make sure that each set of returns is a home run but it sounds like it's not a big deal if they link the two returns that are close to each other. They will be connected with three inch pipe if that affects anything. Is it normal to put returns close to each other?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    Update: it turns out they are linking the three returns in the shallow end and piping that to the pad. And the two returns in the deep end they are linking and piping to the pad. Jason, do you think it is worth having them redo it or is the benefit to me negligible. I'm a little annoyed because I reminded the PB two days ago that all returns were home runs and he said he knew. The guy working now says they always link returns near each other so that they have the same pressure coming out. I think someone on TFP had suggested that home runs were better but I can't recall why. Am I giving anything up by not having the other return in the shallow end not its own home run?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    If the returns run separately back to the pad you insure that you can balance them correctly later, have more flexibility about turning one off it for example it leaks, and have lower flow resistance because of the multiple pipes. The last point really doesn't matter in your case (with 3" pipe) but the other two still apply.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    If it was your pool would you let it go or make a fuss?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    That depends a little bit on the return layout and how likely I felt that the returns will actually be balanced, neither of which I can evaluate easily from far away.

    Having three lines sounded reasonable, two is a little weak, but the 3" pipe makes up for a lot if the returns will come out balanced. Balanced in this context means equal pipe length and qual fitting count from the point where they split off from all being in one pipe.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    With 3" pipe there will be very little imbalance and even if there was imbalance, as long as it isn't severe, it won't cause any issues which in this case it won't be.

    But you may end up having to add some head loss on the return side (i.e. smaller eyeballs) because when you have large return pipes with multiple runs, the return head loss is very low and if the suction head loss is not significantly lower, which is hard to do, it can cause cavitation in the pump or at least a very loud pump. By insisting on several return runs, you may create more problems than you wish. As a general rule of thumb, the suction pipe runs should be double (or at least equal) to your return runs to avoid any of this issues.
    Mark
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    Re: Home run to returns

    What runs would be my suction runs? I have two skimmers that have their own runs. I also have (I) a main pool pump and (ii) a pump that runs my laminars and grotto jets and (iii) a pump that runs my waterfall. I also have a booster pump for my Polaris.
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    The pipes from the skimmers and main drain are considered suction runs.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    Ok so I have five suction runs (the three main drains and the two skimmers). If each return had its own run then it will be equal. If I make them put the one return that isn't right next to any of the others as a home run I would have three return lines and five suction lines. Based on this information and what Mas985 stated do you or Mark think there is any downside to having them give me all home runs? Any downside to having them give me a home run for the one return that is by itself? I sent an email to my PB alerting him that I didn't get my home runs and am waiting for him to respond.
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    At that pipe size, I would say no, there is no benefit to having another return run and as I said before, it could cause some issues. However, it doesn't mean you couldn't negotiate for some compensation .
    Mark
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    Re: Home run to returns

    Thanks. I looked at the plumbing this morning so let me make sure I described it correctly yesterday. The two returns in the shallow end are tied together in a tee and they then connect to the other return in the shallow end. That pipe that connects all three returns runs to about ten feet or so from the pad. At this point it connects to the pipe running the two deep end returns that are tied together. This, at this point one pipe that is now controlling all returns runs to my Auto Pilot SWG. The autopilot swg has a three way where one pipe is this return pipe. The other two pipes going to the SWG are from my sunshelf where I have two bubblers so I assume they are connecting the bubblers.

    So all my returns eventually connect to one pipe that goes into the SWG. Is that the way you both envisioned it from my earlier description?

    Thanks

    Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    Given there are two pipes that run to the pad, or at least nearly to the pad, it would be really really nice if they both appear above ground, and ideally there would be shutoff valves on each pipe. Then the get merged and go to the output of the SWG.

    So everything you said except "all three returns runs to about ten feet or so from the pad" makes sense. It makes no sense to me to merge the three pipes underground right near the pad, which makes any future changes more complicated for no reason. If they are going to get that close to the pad, they might as well appear above ground at the pad separately so you have future redesign options without extensive digging.

    Once they appear above ground, adding a simple valve on each pipe is not really needed, but it is a very nice frill and doesn't cost much.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Home run to returns

    The two pipes with returns do merge about ten feet from pad. The actual length of pipe after merger is about fifteen feet because the pipes go in straight lines and make 90 degree turns. I can ask PB to unmerge the deep end returns at that spot and do what you say and add a shut off valve at each pipe. That seems like a very easy fix for PB.

    When you mention redesign options what are you thinking about? When I explain to my PB why I want this I would like to understand the argument. I assume I want valves so I can isolate leaks from either pipe? Any other reason?
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    Things tend to come up. Isolating a leak is one obvious possibility. Switching a return to a suction port is another. Balancing uneven return strength, or making returns uneven on purpose (say to run a fountain off a return). None of these are individually likely to happen, but all together they come up often enough (maybe 1 in 5 pools over entire lifetime) that it is worth making some provision for them in advance, especially because 10 to 20 feet of pipe is cheap and digging it up in ten years is not. Odds are you won't need to dig it up, but a tiny amount of work now could save you lots of work later, so it is worth the insurance.

    And if he objects to any of that, why did he say home runs in the contract in the first place? Because home runs is certainly not what you have gotten.
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    Re: Home run to returns

    Thanks Jason. You are absolulety right. I dont think he will have a problem with your suggestion. They do seem to make a lot of mistakes (in part becasue my contract calls for things they don't normally do and in part because they are sloppy), but they generally don't give me a hard time when i ask them to correct things.
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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    Re: Home run to returns

    The best way is run all lines separately, if one leaks then they all leak. i have built hundreds of pools and separate lines is the way to go. Just my opinion

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    Re: Home run to returns

    UPDATE:

    My PB said "That is not how homerun returns work. Returns are done in sets because a single 2’ or 3” line is run out to the pool and split into two 1.5” returns through the wall because all returns are 1.5”. Having each 1.5” return run all the way back to the equipment is pointless and wasteful because there is no benefit. You are not getting more flow because you can still only push so much water through the pump. They were however not supposed to tee the deep and shallow end returns together but to bring the deep end returns back to the equipment and valve them above ground with the shallow end returns and I will have that corrected" (emphasis added).

    Thus, he is saying that when the contract says "returns are home runs," it doesn't mean what I (and I think others on this forum) interpret as homeruns. Since he is agreeing to bring the two pipes of the returns back to the pad and valve them, he is (in part) giving me what I asked for. However, in lieu of giving me all home runs I also asked for something else. And I'm not sure if that something else is significant. Perhaps it should be another thread, but as it relates to piping I'll mention it briefly here. I have a 2 HP Pump for the 6 jets in my grotto and my 2 laminars. The PB put a main drain inside the pool for that pump and piped it with 2 inch pipe to the pad and abck to the grotto jets. But I noticed that the manual for the pump not only recommends 2 inch pipe for this pump but also states that with 2 I would get Maximum Flow Suction of 120 GPM and 149 Maximum Flow Discharge, but with only a 2 inch pipe I get only 85 and 105.

    When the Laminars are not on, it makes sense to have the maximum flow to the Jets and when the Laminars are on, they will have a dedicated flow, and the Jets would get more (I believe) than they would get with the 2 inch pipe.

    He says he will change this for me but that I have to pickup the cost and it requires a special order "(no one I buy from uses or stocks 2.5” pipe or fittings and therefore it would be even more expensive to special order)"

    If I thought 2 1/2 pipe was important, I might push back and say that when he said "returns are all home runs" in contract his interpretation was not justifiable and I should get the 2 1/2 piping for the jets as compensation (as well as for other mistakes). But if the 2 1/2 piping doesn't seem to be a big deal, I'll drop it.

    Any thoughts please?

    Thanks
    1200 Sq Ft 41,000 Gal. Gunite, JANDY SVRS VS pump, JANDY JXI 400,000 BTU, Polaris 280 w/ 3/4 BP, Rockwall and Grotto (w/6 jets and blower), 2 JANDY Lam Jets, 2 LED Bubblers, 5 Ledlights, AQUALINK P16 RS, 90% Quartz, SWF 185 GMP BP, SWF 125 BP, Levelor K1100 Autofill, AP Digital SWG, 2 skim and 5 returns, and mostly 3 inch piping

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