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Thread: Stubborn TA

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    Stubborn TA

    I have a good test kit on order, expect it anyday now. In the interim, I am daily testing only CL PH and TA.
    I am having trouble getting the TA down.
    I will list measurements for the last few days, so that hopefully you will get a decent picture.

    3/16/15
    CL =5.0
    PH = 7.6
    TA = 210
    Added 20 oz acid, and ran spa pump and air pump for three hours. (in addition to the pool filter running 5 hrs previously)

    3/17/15
    CL= 5.0
    PH= 7.6 (3 drops of #3 brought it down to 7.4)
    TA= 200
    Added 20 oz acid, and ran pool filter and air pump for three hours. (in addition to the filter running 5 hrs previously)

    3/19/15
    CL= 5.0+
    PH= 7.6 (2 drops to get to 7.2)
    TA= 200
    Added 20 oz acid, Ran filter and air pump for additional three hours.

    3/21/15
    CL= 5.0+
    PH= 8.0+- (2 drops to get to 7.4)
    TA= 170

    It is going the right direction, but SLOWLY. Is there something that I am missing?
    Thanks for indulging the long post.
    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Hang on, something is amiss...

    You can't go from 2000 to 170 as you have listed 3-19 and 3-21. Not even with 120 ounces of acid, and here you list the addition of 20 Oz.

    Are you sure about those numbers??

    2000 TA is EXTREMELY high...are you sure about that?
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    DOH!!!
    I corrected the values. Pesky little decimal points!

    )
    Thanks
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    I thought so.

    I knew that wasn't right...

    No worries, your TA is high, ut you can work it down. There is an article in Pool School about how to do it.

    Read up, but it basically involves lowering the pH to 7.2 every time, and aerating to raise it.

    Your fill water is undoubtedly high TA, so you, like me will have a forever battle with it. Sorry, but that's the way it goes.

    Can you please add your location to your profile? It's a little request we make to help answer people quickly and better.
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Thanks. I will keep at it.
    It didn't occur to me that the fill water might be high....interesting. I will test it, just for curiosity.

    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Yep, it has to come from somewhere. Post back for us curious types.
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    You nailed it!
    Fill water:
    CL= 0.2
    PH= 7.2-7.3ish
    TA= 190 !!

    I ran it through our Culligan drinking water pitcher:
    CL= 0
    PH= 6.8
    TA= 120

    Does that seem right, that a drinking water filter would alter PH and TA?

    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    I have no idea what is in that pitcher. It looks like it changes it but without knowing what's in there I can't say exactly how.

    But now you know. Fill water is it.
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    Divin Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Yes sir, the filter can definitely effect the TA and Ph. I have one on my fridge drinking water thing, and I was bored one day, so I tested my tap vs the fridge water and I saw similar results.

    Quote Originally Posted by newmaac View Post
    You nailed it!
    Fill water:
    CL= 0.2
    PH= 7.2-7.3ish
    TA= 190 !!

    I ran it through our Culligan drinking water pitcher:
    CL= 0
    PH= 6.8
    TA= 120

    Does that seem right, that a drinking water filter would alter PH and TA?

    Mike
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Quote Originally Posted by Divin Dave View Post
    Yes sir, the filter can definitely effect the TA and Ph. I have one on my fridge drinking water thing, and I was bored one day, so I tested my tap vs the fridge water and I saw similar results.
    I didn't check ph and TA, but my fridge filter drops my tap water chlorine from 1 to 0. I thought that was interesting.


    30K gallon IG vinyl. 1.5HP 2-speed Waterway Mustang pump. 600 lb sand filter. Polaris 280. Circupool SI-60+. TF-100

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Quote Originally Posted by n240sxguy View Post
    I didn't check ph and TA, but my fridge filter drops my tap water chlorine from 1 to 0. I thought that was interesting.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That is a function of a Charcoal filter upstream of your ice maker/fridge inlet.
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    I FEEL LIKE I AM WINNING!!
    Today's test, with new test kit. (Taylor K 2006)
    FC=3.2
    CC=.2
    PH=7.8
    TA=110
    CH=320
    CYA=30
    Temp=69

    I made a 1-1/4inch x 1 foot PVC aerator, attached it to an air compressor and sunk it in the deep end. It seemed to help bring the TA down a lot quicker than just using the spa air pump and pool filter.
    I am thinking that one more acid adjustment, (bringing PH down to 7.2) and aeration to bring it back up should do it.

    Any other comments that I should be looking at?

    I REALLY appreciate all the support from this group. It has been an education; one that I should have done several years ago.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

  13. Back To Top    #13
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    How far down are you trying to go? One more acid feed may do what you want or not. Just depends.

    Soon, you'll want to work the Cya up to about 40-50 or you may lose more FC with the summer sun soon to be on your pool all day.
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    If I understand it right, I should have my TA target at 80ish??

    I checked again tonight and I think that my CYA is lower than 30. With the tube full, (30) the black dot is still visible, though cloudy.
    In reading in the Pool School, I guess the next step would be a conditioner?
    I have a gallon of "Natural Chemistry" Liquid Conditioner, that I bought a while ago from the local store.
    Is there a better suggestion for raising the CYA?

    The salt is still pretty high. (4000)
    I drained and replaced about 10% of the water a few weeks ago. As long as the SWG is producing, is there any harm in leaving the high salt content, or do you recommend biting the bullet and draining-off some more now, before I finish dialing-in the other chemistry?


    Thanks again
    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

  15. Back To Top    #15
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    I would target working it down to 60 a SWG pool. You'll be fighting it some with your fill TA, and the aeration from the SWG. Taking it to the lower end of the range will give you some headroom. This isn't something that has to be done in a few whacks, just keep on it as per the procedure.

    Since you already have the liquid Cya, you might as well use it. Next time choose powder, it's a much better buy.

    Some SWGs do fine with higher salt levels, but it wouldn't take much more drain to get down to 32-3500. What does yours recommend for its range?
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  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Using the Jandy Aquapure, the builder suggested using 3200 for the target. I believe that Jandy's website says 3000.

    Being pretty new to TFP, one of the things, (read "the only thing") that I miss about getting chemical advice from the retail store, is that I would leave the store not only with a print-out of my water condition, but also a list of things to correct and the proper order in which to make the corrections.

    I want to continue to lower the TA.
    I want to reduce the salt level, which means adding-back fresh water. My source water is high in TA, so correcting the salt doesn't help
    my TA goals.
    I need to raise the CYA. Is that typically done last?

    Thanks,
    Mike
    12,000 Gal plaster pool & spa.
    Jandy 2.7HP V.S. e pump, with IQpump control.
    Jandy AquaPure 1400. Jandy PDA.
    Solar heat. Jandy 400btu ng heater.
    Pentair 420 cartridge filter. Polaris 360 sweep.

  17. Back To Top    #17
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    Re: Stubborn TA

    Quote Originally Posted by newmaac View Post
    I want to continue to lower the TA.
    I want to reduce the salt level, which means adding-back fresh water. My source water is high in TA, so correcting the salt doesn't help
    my TA goals.
    I need to raise the CYA. Is that typically done last?

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Drain whatever water you need to NOW, before the specific mandatory 25% reduction rules are decided upon and implemented. Jandy says 3000 to 3500 is fine.

    • 3.0 to 3.5 gpl of salt is recommended for optimum water conditions.
    • Low salt concentration below 2.0 gpl will cause premature cell failure.
    • High salt concentration above 4.0 gpl may damage the control center.
    • High salt concentration above 6.0 gpl may cause corrosion damage to pool fixtures

    NOTE Should too much salt be inadvertently added to the pool see “Troubleshooting” page 30.

    NOTE To convert gpl (grams per liter) of a salt solution to PPM (Parts Per Million) of a salt solution multiply by 1000,i.e., 3.0 gpl salt X 1000 = 3000 PPM salt
    Drain what you need to get to 3500. Whenever you're done, you can add the CYA. No point adding it only to pump it out again. Then get back to work on the TA. The CYA won't affect the TA reduction at all, but be aware that it might slightly lower the pH. You shouldn't need to hook up the elaborate air compressor aerator. Just angle one of the return jets up. Sometimes a piece of PVC pipe will wedge in a return eyeball snugly, and you can stick an elbow or a 45 on it and really get the surface rippling.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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