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Thread: Do you need Phosphate Remover?

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    Do you need Phosphate Remover?

    I'd maintain your pool for you, but I live in Florida. If you hire someone, I think the only thing you'll have to worry about is the pool guy keeping calcium in your pool. I say this because it is one of the most neglected chemicals at least where I'm at especially on SWG pools. This is because they're not getting a steady diet of Cal Hypo like standard pools. For a liner, not so much of a big deal. But I see you have pebble tec. Algae really shouldn't be an issue with a SWG. I rarely have algae in salt pools. Usually high phosphates is the issue if there is.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    A few things in your post are incompatible with what we teach on the forum.

    1. Not many pools use Cal_hypo to chlorinate. Most use tri-chlor which has it's own problems.

    2. In most areas of the country, inadequate CH is simply not a problem.....in fact, High CK is a much bigger issue.

    3. Phosphates are irrelevant to proper pool water management.

    I don't bring these up to argue with you but to suggest you read further on our website to familiarize yourself with the solid science we teach.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Some of the things you teach on the forum are incompatible with practical applications.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    Some of the things you teach on the forum are incompatible with practical applications.
    Could you tell us one or two? We are always eager to learn new things.
    Dave S.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    They may not be practical for a pool service that visits once a week ... but that is not what this forum is geared toward which is pool owners who want to learn how to maintain the pool for themselves with a little time commitment and not much money.

    There is no arguing the chemistry that is taught here.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Sure. Most notably, the stance on phosphates. It is taught on this forum not to bother with them. On the contrary. In my experience, reducing them to lower than 200 ppb has a dramatic effect on whether or not I show up to a green pool or a sparkling pool the next week. As a business owner, I am always looking for the cheapest most effective way to keep algae at bay while maintaining the rest of the water parameters. Algaecides work in certain situations, but reducing phosphates has always been the cheapest most effective way to prevent algae. There really is no reason to bother with your pool as much as this forum recommends unless traffic is extremely heavy. But lets be honest, for most people, it is not. Once a week tending to the pool has always been enough for me except in certain situations. So what's better killing a fly with a hammer (tending to the pool everyday and using brute force, a la Chlorine exclusively to prevent algae) or a flyswatter (reducing phosphates and maintaining a normal chlorine residual on a consistent basis). Now don't get me wrong here. THere will still be times when evironmental factors are out of your control and you will need to tend to the pool more often. But in normal situations, once a week with proper water balance and phosphate reduction is the cheapest, safest, and best way to go.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    reducing phosphates has always been the cheapest most effective way to prevent algae.
    That is incorrect.

    Phosphates have nothing to do with algae prevention. Adequate chlorine is the most economical and effective way to prevent algae.
    Dave S.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Incorrect my friend. Do your research. Phosphate reduction has been around for a while now. Waste water plants have been using it for a long time because phosphate enriched water coming out of the plant was screwing up the ecosystem from major algae blooms. Look it up. Phosphate reduction is also in text books for pool maintenance. Im not making this up.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    But algae isn't the real problem. If you have enough chlorine, you won't have algae. Algaecides and phosphate removal, even if they help, do nothing but mask the real problem that you are allowing the sanitizer in the pool to fall to dangerously low levels. Controlling algae is primarily an appearance issue until it gets to the point that you can't see the bottom, but allowing the sanitizer to fall to low levels allows pathogens that can make people sick or kill them to exist in the pool.

    Reducing phosphates or using algaecides does nothing to control E. Coli, which can be easily and quickly killed by chlorine.

    Hiding insufficient sanitation by controlling the algae by means that do nothing to make the pool safe is a fundamentally dangerous practice. If you maintain the chlorine, you won't have algae. Your solution is the equivalent of telling someone to turn up the radio to cover up the sound of one of their wheels getting ready to fall off. The primary goal of taking care of a pool is to make it safe, not to put lipstick on a pig and allow dangerous pathogens to exist in the water.

    Your method is dangerous.


    Quote Originally Posted by doubleOkevin View Post
    Sure. Most notably, the stance on phosphates. It is taught on this forum not to bother with them. On the contrary. In my experience, reducing them to lower than 200 ppb has a dramatic effect on whether or not I show up to a green pool or a sparkling pool the next week. As a business owner, I am always looking for the cheapest most effective way to keep algae at bay while maintaining the rest of the water parameters. Algaecides work in certain situations, but reducing phosphates has always been the cheapest most effective way to prevent algae. There really is no reason to bother with your pool as much as this forum recommends unless traffic is extremely heavy. But lets be honest, for most people, it is not. Once a week tending to the pool has always been enough for me except in certain situations. So what's better killing a fly with a hammer (tending to the pool everyday and using brute force, a la Chlorine exclusively to prevent algae) or a flyswatter (reducing phosphates and maintaining a normal chlorine residual on a consistent basis). Now don't get me wrong here. THere will still be times when evironmental factors are out of your control and you will need to tend to the pool more often. But in normal situations, once a week with proper water balance and phosphate reduction is the cheapest, safest, and best way to go.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    I think this is where this forum fails here. Phosphates are the fundamental problem, not the sanitizer. When the phosphate is allowed to get to a certain point, it will require more chlorine indirectly. This is what happens. The algae starts to feed on the phosphate. The sanitizer is at normal 3 ppm. Unfortunately the sanitizer at 3 ppm wont be able to keep up. I've seen algae blooms overnight with high phosphate. Most people would shock here. They should shock. And the algae will go away for a while. But once the residual is back to 3, you still have the phosphate in the water and algae starts the process again. You notice your residual decreasing so you add chlorine, but its not enough and eventually the algae takes over again. And on and on. You can see how the chlorine costs accumulate. Now if you reduced the phosphate, you would save money in chlorine because the never ending process would take a lot longer to happen.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    For what it's worth here's a study someone did on the topic:

    http://www.mcgrayel.com/files/Phosph..._and_Myths.pdf
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Its not worth much because it is from a salesman trying to promote his product. I have no dog in this fight other than to keep my clients safe and save money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do have to say this. My knowledge is not only from research, it is from experimentation. My knowledge is not theoretical. It is proven.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleOkevin View Post
    Its not worth much because it is from a salesman trying to promote his product. I have no dog in this fight other than to keep my clients safe and save money.
    Phosphate remover costs $30 a bottle. It sure isn't going to save me any money on chlorine. I never use phosphate remover, never use algaecide, spend 10-15 minutes a week on my pool and never have algae. Just like the rest of the 75,000 members here who got tired of getting robbed by the "pros" who couldn't keep their pools clear.

    You are endangering the lives of your customers by falling for the myth that phosphates cause algae and treating a symptom, not the problem.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Not every pool needs phosphate reduction. However, telling someone with 500 ppb or more phosphate to not worry about it is dangerous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I advise anyone with phosphate over 500 to take care of it. You really are wasting your money if you don't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, people are replying to me like I'm not using chlorine. Not true. I use a lot of chlorine. I would never put my clients at risk like that. Come on guys. Read my posts before you reply.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleOkevin View Post
    Not every pool needs phosphate reduction. However, telling someone with 500 ppb or more phosphate to not worry about it is dangerous.
    No, ignoring proper chlorination and substituting snake oil is dangerous. Phosphates don't cause algae anymore than Dunkin Donuts causes people to be fat. With proper chlorination, algae can't grow regardless of the phosphate level.

    Reducing phosphates in a pool where the chlorine levels are poorly maintained and the stabilizer level is excessive may reduce the chances of an algae bloom, but you are treating a symptom while allowing a truly dangerous lack of sanitation to exist.

    Also, people are replying to me like I'm not using chlorine. Not true. I use a lot of chlorine. I would never put my clients at risk like that. Come on guys. Read my posts before you reply.
    If you were using proper chlorine levels, you would never have algae, regardless of phosphate levels or the use of algaecide. If removal of phosphates or the use of algaecides has ever helped one of your pools, it was because the chlorine level was insufficient.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    However, telling someone with 500 ppb or more phosphate to not worry about it is dangerous.
    What is the danger?
    Dave S.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    John T. You're not reading my posts. Never once have I said I don't properly sanitize my pools. Duraleigh, it is dangerous because the chlorine residual can drop rapidly in the presence of high phosphate.
    Caretaker of 50+ IG pools ranging from 10,000 gallons to 40,000 gallons. Vinyl, Plaster, and Fiberglass. Sand, DE, Cartridge. All brands and models. Taylor K-2005 Complete High.

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    Re: doubleokevin

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
    Phosphates don't cause algae anymore than Dunkin Donuts causes people to be fat.
    Might have to agree to disagree about that!
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleOkevin View Post
    John T. You're not reading my posts. Never once have I said I don't properly sanitize my pools. Duraleigh, it is dangerous because the chlorine residual can drop rapidly in the presence of high phosphate.
    No, the chlorine cannot drop rapidly in the presence of high phosphate. Phosphate doesn't affect chlorine levels. At all. If the algae could start growing, it might make a difference, but with proper chlorine levels, the rate at which algae that enters the pool from the environment consumes chlorine is exactly the same regardless of the phosphate level.
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    Re: doubleokevin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary R View Post
    For what it's worth here's a study someone did on the topic:

    http://www.mcgrayel.com/files/Phosph..._and_Myths.pdf
    Regards,

    Gary R.
    This is not a scientific study, but mearly a paper written by a company selling algecide.
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