Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: There is plan B

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Oslo
    Posts
    120

    There is plan B

    Split off of this topic. JasonLion

    I agree that for most of people a SWG is the best option. I did consider this as well in the beginning, but I had to give it up for to reasons. First, all the backwash an main drain water ends up in by backyard, and with the holt local climate and lack of rain in summer the salt is likely to make problems for a red poor soil. The second reason is the time interval for swimming pool maintenance. I think one can leave the SWG system unattended for weeks rather than months at a time. I cannot risk coming to the property and finding a green swimming pool. That is likely to ruin our holiday. Still I recommend the UV lamp for all the pools as a backup system. It is not sufficient for sanitizing purposes, but it will keep algae out of the pool. As long as the pump and the UV lamp works, water is free of algae and copper algaicide takes care of the some algae cliging to some surfaces as all pools have some areas with poor circullation.
    South of France inground rectangular 17k pool - ruber membrane. Sliding dome, black thermal blanket covering 75% of the pool surface. Aqualux 3/4Hp pump, glass media sand filter, Zodillac robot, 110W UV-c lamp, Hayward brominator, Caliente 12kW heat pump.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    That can work, but it is worth pointing out that you run a significant risk of getting copper stains, which are unsightly, and somewhere between difficult and impossible to remove (depending on the kind of pool surface you have).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Oslo
    Posts
    120

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    Our pool is covered with a thick rubbery blue membrane that is attached to the pool shell. I add 0.5ppm copper to times per year and after 18 months at pH 7.4 there is no sign of staining. Last summer we had some algae at the waterline where the solar cover was close to the pool wall. After removing the solar cover, I simply whipped clean the water line, increased the bromine level at 2ppm and the pool was ready for the next day usage. Pool water temperature was 27 deg C and there was no bromine for two month. At that time the pump and the UV lamp was on or 12h a day. Later I reduced the run time to 8 and in winter to 4 hours. I plan to increase the pump run time to 6 hours again as soon as the weather gets hot. I think that 0.5ppm copper is safe and efficient at the same time. Copper is not volatile so is not important to measure in the beginning. In order to avoid staining one should keep the pH close to 7.4 and copper concentration under 1ppm.
    South of France inground rectangular 17k pool - ruber membrane. Sliding dome, black thermal blanket covering 75% of the pool surface. Aqualux 3/4Hp pump, glass media sand filter, Zodillac robot, 110W UV-c lamp, Hayward brominator, Caliente 12kW heat pump.

  4. Back To Top    #4
    simonmoll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Barbados
    Posts
    52

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    OK there seems to be some votes for using copper in controlled circumstance.
    So my questions are
    What is sanitizer killing?
    How much sanitizer would I need using liquid chlorine? Can the chl level be a lot lower than if not using the copper?
    What other ways are there to sanitize?
    Pool is still crystal clear and I swim once a day. No chlorine taste is great
    11,750 gall. concrete, in ground pool in Barbados. Shallow (max depth 4'6"). New (May 2016) Hayward variable speed pump and SWG and (make?) PH controller. Hayward Star Clear filter (50 sq ft). History of algae but not since joining TFP! Surrounded by coconut trees and other palms. Serious white fly infestation of palms continues.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    There are only three sanitizers approved for pool use in the US: chlorine, bromine, and baqua. Bromine is very very similar to chlorine and costs more. Baqua gets many many complaints and is far more expensive.

    Sanitizer is killing infectious germs, basically bacteria and viruses.

    Chlorine levels can't really be usefully lower when using copper.

    Typical chlorine usage is 2 ppm per day, which translates into about one quart of ultra beach per day in 11750 gallons. Some people need more, some less.

    If you can taste the chlorine something is going wrong. Chlorine has a subtile smell that most people don't notice. The classic "chlorine smell" common in indoor public pools is actually chloramines, a clear sign of bad pool chemistry.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    37,389

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    Quote Originally Posted by simonmoll View Post
    OK there seems to be some votes for using copper in controlled circumstance.
    I only see 1 member who claims to use copper in a vacation home to usually prevent algae ... that seems a far cry from "some votes" for copper.

    I agree with everything Jason just posted.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    The main issue with letting the pool go in terms of disinfection is the formation of biofilms. With copper alone, it does not sufficiently inhibit fecal bacteria so Pseudomonas can still form biofilms. Then when you add chlorine the biofilm is more resistant. That's the problem. So you need a better disinfectant even when not in use. A copper/silver combination would be better for that though just increases the risk of staining from two instead of one metal. The other approach is reducing phosphate levels, but that only slows down and doesn't stop bacterial growth (same with algae). An algaecide is similar in that way though only partially slows down bacterial growth.

    Of course, you could use Trichlor pucks in between times, but that will raise the CYA level. If you aren't away that often, then that may be the better approach.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Oslo
    Posts
    120

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    One has to realize that using only chlorine to sanitize the pool there is plan B. The moment chlorine drops below the recommended level the pool can and will be taken over by algae first and then bacteria, etc. I think that it is wise to have a backup plan. For this reason I recommend a UV lamp. Mine it was not expensive and the tubes will last for three years, according to my calculations. Most people that have discontinued using them claim that it did not made any difference. While I agree that in a proper sanitized pool a UV lamp is in fact redundant, most of the pools have had at one time gone through an algae bloom and turned green. A UV lamp will inactivate more than 99% algae, bacteria and fungi that pass through the filtration system. This is not good enough to keep the pool water safe to swim, but it will keep the pool water clean. UV lamp manufacturer claim that the chlorine or bromine levels can be halved when the UV lamp is in use, and still have a proper sanitized pool. Moreover, the UV can produce a small amount of ozone and this will convert a small amount of bromide into bromine. I have not been able to measure this, but I will try. A UV lamp is a great small investment and a wise plan B.
    South of France inground rectangular 17k pool - ruber membrane. Sliding dome, black thermal blanket covering 75% of the pool surface. Aqualux 3/4Hp pump, glass media sand filter, Zodillac robot, 110W UV-c lamp, Hayward brominator, Caliente 12kW heat pump.

  9. Back To Top    #9
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: There is plan B

    You have a number of mistakes/misunderstandings in this post.

    While UV does cut into the growth rate of algae/bacteria/viruses, it can't stop them from existing in the pool or from forming bio films. Meanwhile, chlorine at appropriate levels is extremely effective at completely stoping all of that.

    The story about lowering FC level is true for commercial pools, where UV serves a useful purpose, but is completely false for residential pools where the FC level is already as low as it can practically go.

    A properly designed UV system does not produce any meaningful amount of ozone, and if it did it would be a respiratory hazard.

    UV also breaks down chlorine, meaning you need to use more chlorine than you otherwise would.

    It is possible that in your situation the reduction in the rate of growth makes a big difference, but anyone using chlorine regularly would be much better served by maintaining an appropriate chlorine level and not getting a UV system.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  10. Back To Top    #10

    In the Industry

    Donldson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    2,637

    Re: There is plan B

    A pool isn't exactly a life or death situation, a Plan B is really not a consideration for most of us.

    There are many times during the summer that the temperature is too cool to swim. Sometimes I fall a bit behind on maintenance during that time and we get a bit of algae. I really don't fret about it, we have a very efficient and simple method to fix that, SLAM. A couple days later it is like the problem never existed.

    So I won't dismiss your solution, if it works for you then let it work for you. I, however, am not going to risk having copper in my pool, knowing full well what the side effects can be. I am also not going to spend a decent chunk of money on a UV system that will increase my chlorine usage and only somewhat reduces the chance of algae if I slip up on my duties.

    From my HTC One via Tapatalk
    JD - 28' Round Above Ground Pool, 17,000 Gallons. Dual speed Jacuzzi pump with cartridge filter. Dual speed 1 HP pump, Hayward S210T sand filter
    Pool School - PoolMath - HIGHLY Recommended Test Kits

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: Poolsan copper in pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tepelus View Post
    UV lamp manufacturer claim that the chlorine or bromine levels can be halved when the UV lamp is in use, and still have a proper sanitized pool.
    That is just baloney from the manufacturer. Bacteria grow on surfaces and any growing and forming biofilm on pool surfaces will not get circulated to a central system be it UV, ozone, advanced oxidation processes, microfiltration, or anything else of that type. The purpose of the disinfectant in the bulk pool water is to disinfect everywhere including on pool surfaces, in piping, in the middle of the pool, etc. It is also there to help prevent person-to-person transmission of disease -- something else that UV or ozone in the circulation system do not affect (I'm talking about immediate transmission -- such systems do help with shortening an outbreak of Crypto).

    You can, of course, set whatever active chlorine level you want and just take increased risks. However, for consistent disinfection in the bulk pool water the only way you can do that and lower the chlorine level is to supplement with another disinfectant in the bulk water. This is why copper/silver combination ionization systems certified by NSF (listed here) and approved by the EPA allow for lower 0.4 ppm FC than the usual 1.0 ppm FC minimum (I'm ignoring the fact that such standards don't account for CYA in the water). Another approach would be to use an algaecide such as Polyquat 60 and another approach would be to use a phosphate remover. While these approaches don't eliminate the need for chlorine, they would let you lower the level for equivalent prevention of algae and likely help to some degree with disinfection rates at least in terms of preventing bacterial growth (the phosphate removers will do nothing to kill person-to-person release of bacteria or viruses or protozoa and even copper/silver do not do much with viruses or protozoa).

    Basically what you are doing is using the UV to supplement green algae prevention and living with a lower active chlorine level for lower disinfection rates. So long as you aren't going too extreme, then it's just a personal trade-off. I wouldn't go below an FC/CYA ratio of 2% or else you'll start to risk some of the heartier bacteria that will be able to grow, but it's a spectrum of risk. There's a very long thread at The PoolForum that is pretty much your same situation but using ozone instead of UV. The poster swore that the ozone was preventing algae growth, but I noted that it was instead his lower phosphate level. We did an experiment adding phosphates to the water and his ozonator was then not able to kill algae fast enough as it wouldn't all circulate. Clearly some algae is free-floating and would get killed if circulated quickly enough so it's not that there's no effect at all, but there is nothing like a disinfectant or algaecide or lack of nutrients in the bulk water itself for slowing down such growth everywhere.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •