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Thread: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    2 speed or not 2 speed?

    I have 1hp single speed pump installed 2007 with new sand filter. Mechanical components are 8 years old. I want to move from 2 speed or variable speed pump.
    My question to the group come is two parts.
    1. Is it wiser to replace the entire pump assembly that ha full factory warrany or
    2. Replace existing pump, impeller and related gaskets. Work performed by local pool shop when I deliver it to them.

    Bonus Question: Variable speed motors are an option but I don't like digital things around a pool and I prefer it simple. My plan is to have dual speed pump with a waterproof toggle switch in line with my T104 mechanical timer. Pump will operate at low speed until I need to vacuum at which time, I flip a switch.

    Recent events: I corrected a leak at main drain line (much digging) but still see air bubbles from one of two pool jets. My gut tells me that the air is coming from an above ground PVC connection so I re-glued all joints surfaces and replaced o rings at all unions (with lube). I suspect that bubbles may be related to 8 year old impeller.
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Generally speaking, an air leak plus wanting to save electricity is not enough to justify replacing a working pump. Is there anything else wrong you haven't mentioned? As it stands, you are unlikely to save enough to justify replacing the pump.

    If you are set on lowering your electrical costs, a two speed motor is likely to be the best deal.

    Air in the returns isn't going to have anything to do with the impeller. Check the seal on the pump strainer basket lid and the seal on the pump drain plugs.

    You would't happen to have a salt water chlorine generator (SWG)? They produce bubbles that are often visible in the returns.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    What's your electric cost per KWH? If is less than $.30KHW you're better off with a 2-speed motor. While a VSM (variable speed motor) is technically more efficient, you the price difference between the cost difference in the motors isn't saved in the electric savings that a VSM offers.
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Look at a 1HP 2-speed square flange motor. Remember to replace the shaft seal also.
    Here's the manual: http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/DynaProOM.pdf

    A side conversation on variable speed pumps has been moved to here. JasonLion
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    I cleaned and lubricated o rings and drain of pump strainer basket (they don't "spit" water when pump turned on-off and did not before I re-cleaned them) plus cap of in-line chlorine feeder but stopped short of replacing gaskets. Also added T with bleed valve to pressure gauge. Don't see much difference in air volume in basket with bleed open even after 5 minutes of operation. Pressure gauge reads under 20 psi

    One one level I accept that air is not related to the impeller but it is a seven year old pump. About a year ago I had similar air problem and my mechanically inclined friend opened the pump to discover little twigs and hackberry tree seeds in the impeller "vents". The air problem went away for a while. Unfortunately friend has moved to Arkansas and I'm on my own.
    air in pump pot.jpg
    pool plumbing 2.jpgpressure guage with bleed valve.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    If you're sucking air it has to be before the pump, the basket and such. Have you tried running water (slow steady stream) over the union fitting and watch the basket to see if the air goes away. Another thing to use is shaving cream (foamy type/not gel), and see if it gets sucked into the fitting. It the wier door getting stuck and is your pool level high enough?

    After the pump everything is pressurized so it would drip/spray out, especially at 20psi.

    I'd concentrate on looking at the unions, the o-rings can go bad/dry out/crack. It looks like there is a T-fitting on the suction side that could be another source of the leak.

    Check the obvious stuff first, and work methodically from the pump back to the weir.
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Yes I did the water over the plumbing joints and can't detect a change. T fitting is possibility. I'll pull the faucet at plug it temporarily. As you can see from above picture I did quite a bit of below ground plumbing to correct a bottom drain leak caused by roots and replaced couplings on supply side as they were exposed. Picture you see is old exposed plumbing.
    I still don't understand why the bleed valve does not clear the air from the pot after 10+ minutes in open position unless I have a big air leak.

    Is there a clever way to test for air leak between pump and weir? Best idea I have is to put a test ball in at the weir and cut pipe at pump, glue on a fitting with a pressure gauge and pump it up with air. I can already see having to rebuild the entire manifold just to get it all back together.
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    FYI, looking at your pictures you have a LOT of fittings that are not schedule 40 PVC that look like DWV fittings ... the sweep 90s at the pad and that Y in the ground (is that on the suction side?). There is less interface between the pipe and the fitting, so could be easier for them to be leaking.

    If there is always air coming out of the filter vent, then you must have a pretty substantial air leak somewhere. You could try putting shaving cream on all the joints and see if it gets sucked in anywhere ... maybe the water was not enough if the leak it too big.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    This conversation has drifted from pumps replacement to air leak diagnosis. Does TFP protocol prefer that I start a new thread or can we stay here? Air leak and plumbing will probably be a big factor in the repair or replace pump question. Thanks for your patience and suggestions. Enjoy my new avatar or was upside-down pool image more appropriate?
    Mellen
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Keep it all here as it keeps your story together.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Hello Mellen. LOL. The dog is good. When the pump runs, does it fill with air or is there a bubble of air that just remains?

    In regards to the original question VSP or 2-speed motor whats your electric cost?
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    boboda. That's my little girl Jet toilet training herself. She has grown up to be a 100 lb Labrador. The pool is hers,not mine at this point and we want her to be happy in her "TFP"
    Back to your questions.... The air bubble in the pot really does not grow or shrink even with bleed valve open.

    Electric cost is 10 cents per kWh. I want to put grid tied solar on the roof but general rule is to reduce electric load first. Two speed pump with a toggle switch seems to be most economical approach for someone who can barely program his TStat in the house.

    jblizzle was correct in identifying DWV fittings from Home Depot. I did not know the difference until a few days ago (after latest work was completed). I made the swap from hard 90 degree turns about three years ago believing that the sweeping turns would help the flow in my existing 1.5" piping and reduce load on pump. After repairs, One joint "spit" water near the wye pictured at the manifold. I suspected that the some of the joints worked loose in the move and applied extra glue to all. The spitting at the wye stopped but still have air leak. Thanks for the shaving cream tip.

    Mellen
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Your electric is cheap. Definitely go with the 2-speed with a switch. Keep us informed.
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    RFI. How does Hayward Super Pump 2-speed SP2607X102S sound to the group for $478 plus shipping? I considered swapping motor on existing Sta-rite pump with new AO Smith 2-speed motor and seals but there is only a two hundred dollar difference in parts when done. Sta-rite is 7 years old and impeller could be the next problem. The Hayward has a bigger strainer pot with swing-away bolts and one year warranty. I'll probably have to re-plumb the pump area looking for my my air leak and replace DWV fittings anyway. I believe these pumps had a high failure rate in 2010-2011. Any suggestions from the Brain Trust?
    Mellen
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    That is a good pump but a slightly more efficient pump is the MaxFlo XL SP2307X102. Comes with unions which is a plus. I like the pump lid a little better than the SuperPump too.

    http://www.lockewell.com/index.php?m...dw7BoC63nw_wcB
    Mark
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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    The two bolt screw down lid looks more conveient and pot size on SP2607X102S looks bigger. I am looking for actual size on line and not found it in Hayward specs. Price is certainly more attractive.
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Another good, economical pump is the Jandy FloPro. You can get it at Sunplay for $359.95 shipped. I bought mine last year from Pool Supply World for $372.99, but their current price is $506.99.
    14k gal IG vinyl, Jandy Flopro 1 hp up-rated, 2 spd pump, Hayward 325 sq ft cartridge filter, Circupool Si-40 SWCG

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    mellenw's Avatar
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    Re: 2 speed or not 2 speed?

    Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I went with MaxFlo XL SP2307X10 I almost went with the SP2607X102S because of bigger leaf capacity. Then I took a closer look and did not like the square shaped lid gasket.
    16 K gallon, IG, Concrete pool built approx 1970. (Resurfaced with plaster May 2015) 9 ' deep approx 17'x 33'. (1) skimmer, (1) bottom drain, (2) jets. PUMP: Hayward Max-Flo XL 2 speed 1 HP (installed May 2015). Sta-Rite T240BP-1 Crystal-Flo sand filter (installed 2007), Pentair 320 in-line chlorine /bromine feeder (2007 & 2012). TFPC with Borax/Bromine. taylor K2006 test kit. Mellen, Dallas TX

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