Breakers keep tripping After 6 Weeks!

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Well, the saga continues w the breakers tripping.

This morning the pool did not start up as programmed by the PB at 9am CST. I went to the control panel and the message said something like "filter error". I cannot recall the specifics, but when I looked down, both of the double-polled 20amp breakers were tripped. again, even after a new GCFI was installed.

Both of DP 20Amp breakers are Siemens and both have white test buttons on them. It seems one id dedicated to the hayward Ecostar pump and the other 20amp is dedicated to the heater, blower, Hayward Super II 1.5HP pump. The lights are on a separate 15amp and so are the fire bowls.

The VSP shut off yesterday at 3 as programmed, but did not come on this morning, along w the filtering system. Nothing else was being run, so I am thinking along the lines that it has to be:

1). Bad breaker for VSP
2). Short in the VSP
3). Bad computer panel

Since both breakers are tripping, and the VSP is only hooked-up to one of the 20AMP breakers, could one breaker tripping cause the other one to trip or a bad pump cause them both to trip? If not, then I would assume it is something highter up and that is the control panel.

I sent my PB a note on the matter and awaiting a response. Any feedback prior would be greatly appreciated so I have some retort when we talk.

As always, thank you very much,
tstex

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

If the wiring was done correctly and your electrical supply is good there is no reason why both breakers should trip at the same time.

You are missing several possible causes for the breakers tripping: water in the electrical conduit, stripped insulation allowing shorts inside the conduit, other shorts in the wiring, over-voltage on your electrical supply lines, surges on your electrical supply lines, to name a few. The first thing I suspect at the moment is water in the electrical system somewhere.

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Jason,

I just spoke to another PB and he said that it was known that the wiring in the VSP's can sometimes cause the breaker(s) to trip. Has anyone heard of this too? What I cannot seem to understand is why both breakers would trip if the only device causing it was on a dedicated breaker???

Your conclusion of water being in a line makes sense bc it is impacting more than just one breaker. Is this a common thing? If so, how is this fixed? I hope to God it is not having to pull-up the conduit runs. I am sure w a high-powered compressor they could shoot air thru a conduit and push out any water, yes? But of there is a leak in the conduit, they will have to pressure test any conduit line as well...

I will keep you all posted on any developments so hopefully this can help someone else.

Thanks,
tstex

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

I just spoke to another PB and he said that it was known that the wiring in the VSP's can sometimes cause the breaker(s) to trip. Has anyone heard of this too?

Yes, I mentioned this above at least twice. It depends on the breaker, some work, some don't.

The whole VSP tripping the breaker thing does not in any way account for another breaker not connected to a VSP pump tripping. That suggests a more complex problem, perhaps a cross circuit short or a water in the wiring problem. These more complex issues are often difficult to pin down.

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

"I just spoke to another PB and he said that it was known that the wiring in the VSP's can sometimes cause the breaker(s) to trip. Has anyone heard of this too?

Yes, I mentioned this above at least twice. It depends on the breaker, some work, some don't."

I did not explain that correctly. He said it was not the breakers fault, but the wiring inside the VSP that would cause any breaker to trip. He gave me the number of a Hayward person to call that will come out and trouble shoot all of this.

And yes, if 2 breakers are tripping at the same time by one electical component on one breakers, then there is something systemically wrong. This other PB [are really good guy] is going to contact me in a bit and he is going to lead me thru some troubleshooting. Maybe we can isolate the problem or any least start to rule-out a couple of things.

I will post back the resutls - thanks again, tstex

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

The electrician is here. I now an update on how everything is labeled correctly:

Doub-Polled 20Amp Breaker: Ecostar VSP & Hayward H400FDN Heater
Doub-Polled 20Amp Breaker: Super II 1.5 HP Pump & Hayward Blower
Single Breaker: Controll Panel and 3 LED pool lights
Single 15Amp Breaker: 2Amp Firebowl Ingnition Switches
GCFI - Pool Lights
70AMP breaker from house to pool service box [has never tripped]

The electrician is here to change-out the 20Amp breaker servicing the VSP & Heater. I asked him why both breakers were tripping when only one device was being used [VSP] on one breaker and he said "I don't know".

Does the now above configuration have any bearing on your opinion on load balancing?

What did alert me is that the panel was previously labeled as follows:


Doub-Polled 20Amp Breaker: Main Pump
Doub-Polled 20Amp Breaker: Cleaner, Blower
Single Breaker: Pool lights
Single 15Amp Breaker: 2Amp Firebowl Ingnition Switches
GCFI -

What scares me is that the heater was not labeled, nor the Super II Pump, nor the panel

 

[stebs]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

My question is why do you guys multiple things on one breaker and where do they tie together at?

Also: are the pumps wired through relays or controlled through data lines or both?
2nd also? What are the voltages everything is set up for?

 

[JamesW]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

VSPs (Variable Speed Pumps) (or VFDs - Variable Frequency Drives) create harmonics, which can trip gfci breakers not designed for distorted waveforms in the power. Since both breakers are on the same busbars, the harmonics might be interfering with both gfci breakers.

Both breakers should be designed to be used with variable speed pumps. If they aren't, they should be replaced.

http://www.poolproconnection.com/20...about-gfci-breakers-and-variable-speed-pumps/

http://www.pentairpool.com/products/pumps-pump-accessories-2-pole-gfci-breaker-428.htm

Other possibilities are a ground fault, which an electrician should be able to check by checking if there is continuity between power wires and ground.

Or, an overcurrent situation can be checked by measuring amps at startup and run.

I would also recommend checking for proper voltage at load and no load.

Note that when measuring distorted waveforms, a regular multimeter won't be accurate. I would suggest a true RMS power meter that can measure accurate voltage, current, power, frequency and power factor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUdRW0XgYQs

Do you have a booster pump for a cleaner? If yes, which breaker is it on?

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Thank you for your answers, questions and other. I will answer now what I know.

We do not have a booster pump for a cleaner, we are still due a robotics shark.

"Also: are the pumps wired through relays or controlled through data lines or both?
2nd also? What are the voltages everything is set up for?


Everything on the double-polled breakers are set for 220V...everything on the non-polled are 110V


I am talking to a Hayward Rep today and will post back more on this later...thanks again for everyone's help and insight

tstex

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Hayward Rep said to only use a Siemens QF220 and only have the VSP on this breaker and nothing else...At this point, we are going to wait out the replacement of the 20amp breaker and watch to see if anything trips over the next week or so. I am also going to perform the same commands as we did last time w a pool service comp and see what happens...thx, tstex

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Sat morning the same pool service rep that tripped the breakers before, serviced the pool, then we went to the control panel. The EcoStar VSP came on at the programmed time in the morning. It was about 11am and the only thing running on the equip pad was the VSP & control panel. The rep touched the "Service Mode" button, and the second he did, BOTH of the Doub Polled 20Amp breakers tripped. The pump stopped & the control panel had the red service mode light on, and of the three blue lights below (pool, spa, spillover), the blue spa light was lit???? It went from blue pool light being lit, then touching the service mode button, then both breakers tripping and the lit light on the control panel shifted from pool to spa, all w the single touch of the service mode button.

I took pictures of both the dual tripped breakers & the service panel, sent to PB & sent to Hayward Rep that told me to keep him in the loop. I then received a nasty gram from the PB bc I "contacted 'his' manufacturer". I am all ears.

NOTE, Their electrician came Friday to replace breaker that VSP (and heater), but apparently it is not the breaker itself.

Thank you for your help'& feedback,
Tstex

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

I beleive the problem was identified.

A good trouble-shooter for the Manufacturer came out, when going thru every option, noticed the wiring panel door on the pump was not screwed on at all. When it was opened, there was tons of oxidation and white corrosion inside and both the red & blue wires were crimped or flattened.

Since the breakers were only tripping when the pump was on or being turned off, this makes sense. And since the breakers are Gcfi too, they are extra sensative and close to each other, so when one went, the other one did too. The recommendation is to replace the entire pump bc he feels that when he turns it over, water will come out of it. A very basic step that the electrician did not properly close the pump door and that was the problem.

Should be getting the word on this in the next 1-2 days and will post back to let you all know.

Thank you,
tstex

 

[JayBauman]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Glad you're getting to the bottom of your issue.

I certainly hope that your PB gets contacted by "his" manufacturer as a teaching moment on how to properly install equipment!

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Thanks Jay.

This is a classic example of a PB not managing or following up on the work his subs are doing. I just heard an old saying that is quite appropos for this whole ordeal:

"You get what you inspect, not what you expect". My new motto....

Thanks and I'll let you know what is going to take place when it does.

Regards,
tstex

 

[tstex]

Re: Breakers keep tripping

Well, how much longer can this go on?

The manufacturer lHayward] really stepped-up to the table and I applaud them. They replaced my 2-3 month old VSP w a brand new one bc the inside of the wiring/motor housing was corroded. This was not the manufacturers fault, but the PB's sub bc he failed to close and tighten the motor housing lid and rain for 3+ months leaked into it.

So the pump was replaced, programmed to come-on at the same time. Then next morning, I noticed the pool was still. I went to the pool panel, and can you beleive it, the breaker to the new pump was tripped. I took pictures and sent to all. A man rep said that bc the bad pump had tripped the breaker so many times, the breaker may have been bad not. However, that breaker was replaced last friday. So, when I came hm from work yesterday, I looked into the pool panel box and there are now 3 Siemens QF220 breakers...All along I have told them, from the forum, that the VSP needs to be on a separate breaker. This was also stated to me by another reputable pool builder.

I will keep you posted, but if anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I am all ears...

Finally, if you live in the Harris, Fort Bend or Montgomery County areas of Greater Houston, pls private message me and I will tell you this horrendous PB so you can avoid their incompetent business practices.

 

[tstex]

breakers still tripping after 6 weeks since systems started Jan 15/2015

Hello to all,

I posted earlier on this matter when the VSP was tripping the breakers, or so we thought. The PB was not clear as to what was the root cause, but here is a progression over 6 weeks now w the initial breaker/panel configuration to what it is now.


Why did the electrical system start out with 3 total breakers and one GFCI to now 5 breakers and two GFCI’s? Here is my recollection to date:
a. Initial configuration
i. DP Siemens QF220 20AMP Breaker
1. Main VSP
2. Heater was later discovered to be on this breaker too
ii. DP Siemens QF220 20AMP Breaker
1. “Cleaner”, later to be identified as Super II Scupper Pump
2. Blower
iii. SP 20AMP Breaker
1. Pool Lights
2. Later discovered Panel to be on this breaker too
iv. GFCI located on Panel, then moved off the panel onto the wall bc it was not accessible when fence was re-installed
v. Fire bowls in separate panel w a 15amp breaker but not identified to what breaker in the panel

b. Configuration II
i. DP Siemens QF220 20AMP Breaker
1. Main VSP
ii. DP Siemens QF220 20AMP Breaker
1. “Super II Pump
iii. DP Siemens QF220 20AAMP Breaker
1. Heater
2. Blower
iv. SP 20AMP Breaker
1. Pool Lights
2. Panel
v. GFCI on the wall
vi. Fire bowls in separate panel w a 15amp breaker but not identified to what breaker in the panel
vii. * Variable Speed Pump replaced
viii. ** Panel part replaced

c. Configuration III [As of today]
i. DP Siemens QF220 20AMP Breaker
1. Main VSP
ii. DP Siemens Q220 F20AMP Breaker
1. Super II Pump
iii. DP Siemens QF220 20AAMP Breaker
1. Heater
2. Blower
iv. SP 20AMP Breaker
1. Pool Lights
2. Panel
v. SP 20AMP Breaker
1. Fire bowls
2. GFCI 110 outlet added
vi. GFCI on wall

Notes:
i. DP = Double Pole, SP = Single Pole
ii. * Variable Speed Pump replaced somewhere in the timeframe of Configuration II
iii. ** Somewhere in Configuration II, a panel part was replaced and linked to being the reason why the breakers were tripping
iv. It took 5-6 more days after the panel part was replaced and thought to be the source before another breaker tripped
v. Breakers have been tripping since the original date the pool electrical system was activated on or about January 20-21, 2015. The frequency of the main VSP breaker and adjacent breaker has declined to zero instances since the panel part was replaced [5-6 days], but then a DP 20AMP breaker tripped that had both the Heater & blower on it, but neither of these units were on or even had been turned on when the breaker tripped. The breaker that tripped is located on the bottom left in the enclosed picture that was taken 2/26.

To conclude, I would really like some insight as to what I need to do bc this has been a real nightmare and the faith factor is almost all gone. The PB & Manufacturer are still trouble-shooting, but provide no updates.

Regards,
tstex

 

[Patrick_B]

I moved your new thread post here, and giving you a bump to the top. Good luck on this!!

 

[JasonLion]

While I can still think of several possible causes, they aren't actually very helpful. For example surges on utility power coming from outside could do this, but you have no way to testing for that possibility or acting on it. Likewise, water getting into electrical conduit could cause this, but again that is often nearly impossible to find.

 

[JamesW]

It's a difficult situation because this is something that the builder really needs to get figured out. If they can't figure it out then they should call in a different electrician and/or a Hayward service manager for an on site visit.

If this is something that you feel that you need to do, then I would suggest getting a good electrician to check everything. There's too much going to try to diagnose this without being on site. I would suspect a ground fault somewhere. It might also be harmonics from the vsp backfeeding into the power supply causing the trips.

The Pentair breakers are the only ones that I know of that are specifically designed for variable speed pumps.

 

[tstex]

Thanks guys.

here are some follow-ups:

"surges on utility power coming from outside could do this, but you have no way to testing for that possibility or acting on it."

Our house had two 200AMP electrical service panels in the garage. The one that feeds the pool has a 70AMP breaker in it, and it has never tripped one time. The only time in 5 yrs that any breaker has ever tripped in the service panel is due to Christmas lights and GFCI circuits. Nothing else in the house has ever tripped the breakers.

"water getting into electrical conduit could cause this, but again that is often nearly impossible to find."

the pool has 2 Hayward LED color logic lights and the spa has 1. One of the pool lights had to be replaced bc it was not syncing up w the other 2 LED's and it would only do 2 of the 10 colors. There are about 3-4 separate junction boxes on the house near the spa. When they replaced the pool light, they pulled the wiring from one of these junction boxes to replace the LED light. it now works fine.


"It's a difficult situation because this is something that the builder really needs to get figured out. If they can't figure it out then they should call in a different electrician and/or a Hayward service manager for an on site visit."

I believe the root cause of this is an incompetent electrician sub of the PB. he didn't even properly label the equipment on the breakers in the first install. he also installed the panel on the wall right in the middle of the equipment pad, thus the City red-tagged it bc they said homeowner is not going to be walking over equip to get to controller panel. I think when he moved the panel, and was by himself, he dropped the panel and it hit the 1.5HP pump bc there is a ding in the pump and a depression in the panel.

The Hayward rep's have been out here 2-3 times and were here yesterday and the PB. . they walked from the panel to the house junction boxes many times. they were also at the house last fri when I reported this last thur, and were there from 11am to 2pm...no one has said a word.

I do think it is time to hire my own electrician. Does anyone have an idea on what kind of experience or background that type of electrician should have and should I tell him any of the problems or let them go into this cold turkey so I do not bias them? My f-in-law is a former Certified Mechanical Engr/State Licensed for 40 yrs w his how commercial HVAC company and beyond electrical savvy. he said if they do not come clean this time and tell you why you are having this problems and the specific causes, you need to hire your own electrician.. I agree. Just want to make sure it is the right one.

After this is all over, I think I am going to try to see if my VSP can be used to make a 20 gal batch of margaritas...sorry, no salt, we are a CL based pool.

Also, the Siemens QF220 DP 20AMP GFCI breakers are supposed to be top notch - $75/brkr