CYA at 150 -- How Did I Get There and Now What?

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Well all I can say is that we recommend having a chlorine residual (or MPS residual if using Nature2 with MPS) at all times in between your soaks so maybe for whatever reason the Nature2 silver ions alone and the ozonator are not enough to prevent the water from turning cloudy. In that situation it does seem like growth of some sort especially since chlorine gets rid of it. Very strange and I've never heard about this type of problem before.

I know that you find the chlorine getting used up very quickly as if the ozonator is very powerful so maintaining a residual is hard, but it should be easier with MPS. Just use chlorine on occasion, perhaps weekly, to try and keep the water clear.
 
Well, the good news is, thanks to you guys and some experimentation, I'm pretty confident I can keep things under control pretty easily now. I will be changing the water over at the beginning of January, so perhaps can start fresh.

What you are saying about maintaining a chemical residual is exactly where my process disconnects from what is recommended. If we use the tub on a regular basis, there is always some MPS residual, especially now that I have bumped that amount up a bit. But if left unused for a few days, chemical residuals drop to zero, and though I was hoping the ozone and N2 would keep it clear for that time, that is simply not happening.
 
Thinking more about it, the behavior is consistent with algae growth since I don't think the silver ions by themselves would prevent that and algae over a couple of days could make the water look cloudy. The inconsistency here is the lack of light in the spa that usually prevents such growth. Hot water above 100ºF usually prevents such growth as well, but if you aren't using the spa then perhaps the temperature drops to 90ºF or so that algae can grow more rapidly. It's the lack of light that is the mystery factor since that should prevent or significantly slow down such growth -- maybe there's more light getting into the spa than you realize -- some gap in the cover letting light through.
 
I really don't think so...the spa is locked at 100F - maybe goes to 101F during use, but stays 100F every time I check it, day or night. And the cover literally seals up against the upper surface of the acrylic, pulls down on a bit of a vacuum, and has a skirt all the way around it. The system is brand new, so no cracks or anything. Pretty certain that water is getting **** near zero photons unless we use it (LED lights) or open it to administer.

However...it turns out that in my ignorance of bleach products, I managed to get the "Splash-Less" variety (who knew there were 10 varieties of Chlorox!?). That stuff does not work in hot tubs. Not only does it cause lots of foaming, it does not appear to generate much FC at all! I had not been measuring it immediately after introduction of bleach, so assumed my FC was falling to zero overnight, but I tried measuring for FC 1 hour after putting in nearly 4 oz of Splash-Less, and was reading hardly any FC. So, I ran down and got some regular/regular bleach. With that in the water, I got a reading of 4.0 FC one hour after putting 4 oz. into the 380 g of water. Also measured 0.8 CC, which worried me a bit. The next morning, the FC is down to 0.2, but CC measures 0.6 ish. Nobody has been in the tub for 5 days, so whatever is happening in there is not from bather waste... All parameters remain as reported earlier, including the high CYA.

Anyway, other than the bubbles, the water is clear. Hopefully, there is nothing toxic in Splash-Less, because I intend to go in there tonight. Perhaps the CC numbers are from the Splash-Less, or ozone interaction with the bleach? In any case, I do not smell chloramines and hopefully will not melt or anything tonight...

I'm open to whatever experiments you think might get to the bottom of this, but starting to feel more and more inclined to dump this water and start over.
 
The Splash-Less is not toxic. It's just apparently lower in concentration (probably around 3% or so) and has thickeners in it that prevent it from splashing, but also cause foaming. I don't think the thickeners react with chlorine, but I don't know if they would interfere with the CC test (I doubt it). As for ozone and bleach (or chlorine), they react with each other to produce oxygen gas, chloride ion, and chlorate ion, none of which show up as CC.

Feel free to do what you want with the water. I think you figured out a lot -- the rapid chlorine depletion (because it wasn't as strong as you thought) and the foaming. The only mystery left is the water turning cloudy before clearing. Maybe the thickeners react with ozone at first to make the water cloudy before later clearing -- I really don't know (I thought you tried MPS only and found the same problem, so I don't know the cause). If the problem is from the Splash-Less, then using the right chlorine should make that problem go away.
 
No, the cloudiness is not related to the Splash-Less - that cycle was happening long before I switched to bleach at all. If I skip MPS and/or chlorination for several days, it will begin to get cloudy, despite the ozone and metal ions. Perhaps there is some place in the system where the bacteria have hidden themselves, and once conditions are not totally toxic, they start to flourish? You guys always say that ozone and/or metal ion is not enough, and a constant chemical residual must be maintained -- the only time I see the cloudiness is when my chemical residual (which goes to zero quickly) stays zero for several days.

Yeah, so I managed to get all the 'soap' out of the tub (by aerating and removing the foam), so now the water is back to normal and crystal clear. Splash-Less is relegated to the laundry room.
 
You may be right that the lack of residual is allowing for something to grow that makes the water cloudy. It's just a bit surprising with the silver ions in the water. They certainly don't kill quickly, but they usually kill fast enough to control bacterial growth. Perhaps they aren't at high enough concentration to be effective. And there's also the ozonator that's on for so long which won't do anything for surfaces but should kill anything that circulates. At any rate, yes we do say to keep a residual so that should be the primary focus. At least you've found that MPS plus the silver ion does work to prevent the problem, just as chlorine does. I suppose we should just leave it at that.
 
We have used Nature 2 in our tub for a while. And I will say that our lives were made a lot easier after we were not using both the Nature 2 and the Ozone generator. I had read that ozone generators were a major factor in decreased cover life. Having replaced several covers in the past I did not want to go down that road again, so I removed the ozone generator. Ever since then it is has been much easier to manage with just the N2 stick. All we do is use a capful of shock every time we soak or once a week if not used. The only time we have had an issue is when I was out of town for an extended perish and no shock was added.


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That's interesting - I have been wondering if I have "too much of a good thing" with ozone, metal ions, chlorine, MPS, and occasionally enzyme. I have read others say that the ozone system makes the metal ion system ineffective by creating metal oxides, though I personally have doubted this to be true. Does anyone know if this has been tested empirically?

It also seems odd that O3 systems would reduce cover life. If that's the case, then it would seem that a substantial amount of O3 is making it into the bathing water and then out-gassing into the space beneath the cover. My understanding is that ozone systems are designed *not* to allow O3 beyond the piping in any appreciable amounts. Is this not the case? My ozonator definitely puts out a constant stream of bubbles from the return line, but I assume this is CO2 or just air...certainly not O3 or O2.

Maybe I will try shutting the ozonator off for a while and see how it goes. It would be nice to add nothing but a dose of MPS once a week...we are clearly nowhere near being able to do that. So you're not using any chlorine at all? Maybe I have a counterfeit N2 system...I'm just not seeing those kinds of results.
 
Ozone is a strong oxidant so if it gets into the spa and outgasses then it will degrade the hot tub cover. Many spas detect when you are in if you press any buttons such as turning on jets and the ozonator is turned off automatically to prevent such outgassing while you are in the spa. If you see bubbles in the spa, then you may have ozone since residential ozonators typically do not have degassing units.

Note that the "once a week" with MPS and Nature2 is with NO BATHER LOAD. You have to add oxidizer (such as MPS) after each soak to oxidize your bather waste.
 

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Since ozone doesn't react with MPS and MPS does not outgas, the MPS would be getting used up oxidizing bather waste. You may have still had lingering bather waste to oxidize. I think that after your next dump/fill, you can see if before there is any bather load how long the MPS lasts. If it lasts for a week, then it's likely that the current situation with MPS not lasting is due to accumulating bather waste some of which may be slow to oxidize. If you don't use chlorine very much, then there may be some chemicals that MPS doesn't oxidize quickly that build up so that after extensive spa use the water builds up these slow-to-oxidize chemicals creating in effect a constant MPS demand that uses it up before a week. That's just a guess based on the info. I know that most people using Nature2 with MPS do need to use chlorine on occasion (every week or two) to be able to keep the water clear. Such chlorine use might help lower the chemicals that cause MPS to get used up.
 
I absolutely need to start over - that is clear. But I am still mystified as to what is going on, because I definitely can't do what others claim they do with N2 systems. And I just don't understand what is the cause. It's almost like something is sneaking into my system from the outside. I guess I will have to decontaminate before the next fill, which is really crazy since this system is brand new.

Take a look at this data:
12/14 - Water is crystal clear. 2 bathers for 45 minutes. 1.75 tbsp MPS afterwards, then 3.5oz (splash-less) bleach.
12/15 - Water looks a bit dull, but mostly clear. No bathers. FC is 1.0 and MPS is 'Low' on the strips, so some residual of both chems after 12 hrs. 4 oz bad bleach.
12/16 - Crystal clear. No bathers. FC is 0.2 and MPS is 0. Foam on surface - small amount of defoamer.
12/17 - Slightly dull. No bathers. Spray cleaned filter with water.
12/18 - Slightly cloudy. 3.5 oz bad bleach, then figured out splash less is bad, so 4 oz real bleach a few hrs later. FC shows 4.0 and CC 0.8 1 hr later.
12/19 - Clear water. FC 0.2/CC 0.6. One bather for one hr that night. Tons of foam - removed. 1.75 tbsp MPS after soak.
12/20 - Very clear water. Low MPS reading. No bathers.
12/21 - Crystal clear. MPS and FC are zero. No bathers.
12/22 - Slightly cloudy. FC still zero and CC is 0.4. No bathers. 1.0 tbsp MPS midday.
12/23 - Slightly cloudier. MPS reads zero! 7 oz bleach bring FC to 10+ and CC to 1.5.

The only person in the tub in the past nine days was me, one time. I'm not some giant person...140 lbs wet and I shower every morning. I simply can't be producing that much bather waste. Obviously, out of pure frustration, I am trying to chlorine shock whatever is in this pool. I have never had the FC levels as high as today, but the *only* chemical that seems to keep this at bay is chlorine. If my chlorine levels fall to zero (which happens in 24 hrs or less, no matter what), then I will get cloudy water within 3 or 4 days, despite the ozonator, metal ions, and MPS. As long as I keep a residual FC level, I'm ok. So what the **** are the ozonator, metal ion system, and MPS buying me??
 
New spas can have greases and even biofilm in the piping from wet-testing if the water wasn't completely blown out. You can use Ahh-Some just before you dump the water and we'll see if we can get you into shape. Just FYI, 1 tbsp (3 tsp) of MPS is equivalent in oxidizing power to just 1-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 1-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach and in 380 gallons is equivalent to 2.7 ppm FC. This amount is roughly what is needed to handle 25 person-minutes of soaking if there were no ozonator.
 
Maybe that's what it is...I will get some Ahh-Some and plan on this project for the new year.

Yes, I know 1 tbsp would be insufficient if anyone had been in there, but nobody had. Over the last 7-day period, I was in there for 1 hour total (in the middle of that time) and had added 2.75 tbsp of MPS, plus the 3.6 oz of splashless and the 4 oz of normal bleach a couple days before. So the 1 tbsp of MPS on the 22nd should have had very little to oxidize, as nobody had been in there for a few days and there was 1.75 tbsp of MPS put in right after the 1 hour soak. So that's my surprise about the 1 tbsp of MPS going away so quickly...the question is: what did it oxidize?

And then, after *5 hours* (I originally posted 2 hours, which was wrong) today, my FC/CC reading went from 10+/1.5 to 4.0/1.0! Something is chewing up that bleach in a big, fat hurry. Should I put more bleach in tonight and bump the FC level back up again?
 
11:30am FC=10+/CC=1.5
4:30pm FC=4.0/CC=1.0
10:00pm FC=0.6/CC=1.0

Will bump FC back to 10 or so and see what it is in the morning.

* Edit: I put the first shock in at 11:30am, not 2:30pm...used this board to determine the first time, but did not realize is shows Eastern times.
 
So that went from 0.6+14.2 = 14.8 to 4.0 or a loss of 73% in 8-1/2 hours. Is there any way for you to shut off your ozonator? That would eliminate one part of what is going on since ozone does break down chlorine. I assume, by the way, that you still have CYA in the water -- you should check on that to make sure. If there is no CYA then the chlorine will outgas and react more quickly. Perhaps during one of these cloudy events that bacteria broke down CYA which would also increase chlorine demand significantly.
 
CYA was 130 as measured by the Taylor kit on 12/12 and looked between the 100 and 150 colors as measured by the test strips on 12/18. I am assuming there is still plenty (too much) CYA in there. I will test with Taylor again.

Yes, I will find a way to shut the ozonator off and test FC degradation again.
 

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