Replacing pool pump - any recommendations?

[mas985]

The only place the return water goes right now is in to one pipe, which then goes to the various return jets in my pool.

You would insert a 3-way valve at that point and one branch would go to the existing return and the other branch to the MD. You can then use the valve to adjust the flow between the normal returns and MD.

I am too lazy to go back through the thread but does your MD line go all the way from the MD to the pad equipment without stopping at the skimmer?

 

[bbrock]

I have no idea on that question. I am not the original owner who had the pool built. There is a file that was passed from owner to owner that has some pics of the pool build. Perhaps there's a pic in there that could answer this question. This 3 way valve idea sounds as though I would still need to drill to be able to connect that solar return to the MD, right? I don't see how this is accomplished without drilling into the ground.

I hate to say it, but all of this is leading me to believe that just a simple, easy approach would be to proceed about with being in partial compliance with using an anti-entrapment main drain cover, and then just splitting the main drains the day we replaster, but this could be years out. For safety, I would advise people not to swim near the main drain when the pool pump is on. The only time it is a hazard is if the main drain would start sucking, and I assume this would not occur under normal operation if the skimmer is not obstructed. Not to mention I would at least have an anti-entrapment cover. And lastly, no one would be swimming unsupervised for quite some time. Only thing with this approach is that it would be questioned as it would not be following code, but we're not planning on selling the home.

 

[mas985]

I found a picture of your pad equipment and you only have one pipe to the pump which means that the MD is plumbed into the skimmer so re-plumbing for solar is out.

However, if you leave the float or equalizer out of the skimmer (if you even have one), even if someone lies on the MD, the skimmer will draw more water relieving the suction on the MD so I don't there is a likelihood of entrapment anyway. Another option is to simply plug the MD in the skimmer. You don't really need the MD anyway.

 

[bbrock]

Tx Mark.

Glad to know the risk is low as I don't have an equalizer or float in the bottom of the skimmer that covers the holes. If I wanted to do the other thing you mentioned, how would I plug the main drain at the skimmer? There are two holes in the bottom of the skimmer. When the pump is on, I obviously know which one is getting water to the pump as I could put my hand over it and feel the suction. I always assumed the other hole is also to the pump and would suck water if the other one gets plugged. If that is wrong, then is that other hole the one that is piped to the MD?

Also, when getting bids on this project, I'm beginning to think perhaps I ought to just wait with replacing the check valves. If I wait and replace my check valves to Jandys, how would I even know when the current basic check valves fail? I have the ones to remind you that mushroom out and cannot be seen through. Again, I have one after the filter, and one after the solar.

Jason, it's cool to know that the EcoStar may be able to have low voltage signal input, if that is the case (I will call Hayward when I have some time). But, as I stated before, I don't think this feature is all that helpful if I could just simply program the pump to run at a faster speed during the hours I want solar heat.

All of these techs keep saying to go with the eco-star, and I'm sure that's because they don't know any better, or are not familiar with the MaxFlo and it being good enough for a pool without water features/spa.

 

[mas985]

If that is wrong, then is that other hole the one that is piped to the MD?

Yes, just use a threaded plug.

If I wait and replace my check valves to Jandys, how would I even know when the current basic check valves fail?

Filter pressure will go real high, assuming check valve is on the pressure side. Or 0 if on suction side.

 

[bbrock]

Tx Mark.
What The purpose of having my main drain pipe to that hole in my skimmer? Because in essence it really still would be my skimmer that would be sucking in the water if the other hole got blocked. Right?

Sorry Mark, could you reexplain your answer for detecting check valve failure? Wouldn't it always be on the suction because the water is getting sucked through the pump, filter, and sent through the valves.

 

[mas985]

Yes, PBs sometimes plug the MD through the skimmer so when the skimmer gets clogged, the MD provides flow and when the MD gets blocked, the skimmer provides flow.

If the check valve is on the pressure side of the pump, then when it fails, it usually closes and stays closed so the filter pressure will increase. Same on the suction side except there, the pressure will drop because the flow is blocked.

 

[bbrock]

Glad to know the risk of entrapment from my system is relatively low with my system d/t having the MD plumbed into the skimmer line. I like the idea of plugging it, as you say it is not really needed anyhow. If I wanted total safety, that sounds like the way to go. If this the safer route among having a MD plumbed into the skimmer line vs. plumbed separately/own line, why would PBers not do it this way regularly?

Twist in my quest to find the right replacement VS pump. So, today I called Pentair re: the Superflo pump. Earlier Mark, you had discussed that it is slightly more powerful than the Hayward MaxFlo. You had mentioned that at one pt when I was skeptical of the MaxFlo. I was calling Pentair to discuss the Superflo capabilities. It sounded quite good. After I described my system, the rep was convinced that it would be adequate vs. the Pentair Intelliflo 011018. When I asked if it could work to send low voltage input to things such as solar or booster pumps, he said it could. That is pretty cool, as the MaxFlo (Hayward's competitor of this pump) does not have that ability. So, if I truly wanted a pump to be able to signal/communicate w/ my solar & booster pump, then this could be the way to go without having to upgrade to an expensive automation controller. I asked if my Pentair Compool LX220 could be upgraded with something like the Pentair 521247 Compool to EasyTouch upgrade, but that it not an option for the LX220.

The newest version of the Pentair Superflo is the 342001. Mark, compared to the MaxFlo how is the energy efficiency? Comparable, but maybe slightly better w/ the MaxFlo?

 

[mas985]

When I asked if it could work to send low voltage input to things such as solar or booster pumps, he said it could. That is pretty cool, as the MaxFlo (Hayward's competitor of this pump) does not have that ability.

Both of the newer versions of the SuperFlo and the MaxFlo have this ability but you need the correct controller. See page 13:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/maxflo-vs-IS2302VSP.pdf

Manufactures deliberately make these two pumps interchangeable to steal market share. The only difference between the pumps is that the SuperFlo can run at 3450 RPM where as the MaxFlo is limited to 3000 RPM which means that the SuperFlo can achieve more than 15% more flow rate. However at the same flow rate the MaxFlo uses about 15-20% less energy which is fairly significant.

 

[bbrock]

Edited:
Tx Mark.

I was actually informed that the low voltage signal input wire does not need a special controller. They stated that the wire can come directly from my Compool Lx220 controller, I think, or maybe the said it was the solar actuator valve. Anyhow, they said that it could be wired to go directly to the pump which would pick up the signal. For the booster, I believe they stated that it would be wired from the Intermatic mechanical timer. It sounded similar with the booster pump like a pool tech had stated that the EcoStar could do. He had stated something about setting some "fireman toggle/switch" on the Intermatic mech timer with the low-voltage wire run to the Ecostar. Maybe that's the same concept the Pentair tech was referring to?

Anyhow, now I'm not sure what to think Mark if you're right. In one aspect, I wonder if this low-voltage signal input would be necessary. But, perhaps it would be with needing the pump to communicate at least with solar. Perhaps I could explain my thought process better with an example. When reading the following, the questions at hand are: would low voltage signalling do anything different than the pumps' time clock/programs would with changing speeds? Why bother w/ the low voltage signalling if the VS pumps have a time clock/controller on them that could allow multiple speeds (the Pentair Superflo & Hayward MaxFlo allow 3 speeds; the EcoStar allows I think 4-8)?

Example: In the summer, right when the pump comes on, the solar may already be on. Let's say pump comes on at 1000, but the solar actuator may have already turned on by 0900. As such, speed 1 will need to be higher than normal to compensate for pumping to the solar on the roof right away upon start up. Then, speed 2 will have to be even higher because then that would be the short duration w/ both solar and the booster pump. Lastly, the 3rd and final speed would have to be the same as speed 1 as the solar would still be on.

So, again, w/ low voltage signalling, the solar could inform the pump that solar is on & we need to ramp up speed, but this would only work if the pump is already on. W/ out the low voltage, then I would just have to estimate when the solar is on and program that accordingly so that the pump has a high enough speed to get it to the solar on the roof. Problem w/ this, if it is not timed correctly and the solar is on, then if the speed is not sufficient when the pump first comes on, the solar panels won't prime & air would be produced through the system. I just don't see how the low voltage signalling could be that much more helpful. Am I missing something (hopefully, this time it was more clear)?

 

[JasonLion]

mas985 was talking about some Hayward pumps, you are talking about some Pentair pumps. They Hayward pumps mas985 is discussing only work with specific controllers (which you do not appear to have). The specific Pentair pump being discussed (as well as the EcoStar) will work with any low voltage signal.

The final paragraph in the last post (#170) doesn't make any sense to me at all. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[bbrock]

Tx Jason. Yes, I understood Mark was discussing the Hayward.

FYI, I edited post #170. Hopefully it is more clear.

 

[JasonLion]

The pumps that support low voltage control will automatically turn on when told to go to a speed. You wire the pump so it always get power, and rewire the timer so it sends a low voltage signal to another input. As long as it is wired up correctly everything will just work, always using a higher speed when solar is requested and running at a lower speed when the timer is on and solar is off.

 

[bbrock]

Since I'm exhausting all options in my research, I figured I would look at what Jandy offers in terms of VS pumps. I saw this: Jandy VS-FHP2.0. From my initial reading, it appears good, but how does it compare energy wise vs the Hayward Ecostar or Pentair Intellifo 011018, since those two are the competitor models. Looks like it would have a smaller footprint length wise which is a +. I really don't hear too much about Jandy pumps though.

 

[JasonLion]

Where are you going with this?

We have already offered you several possibilities that would be ideal for your situation. It doesn't really seem worth the effort to run down all of the trivial variations/pros/cons in every pump offered for sale in tedious detail when we have already taken that into account in our suggestions.

Focus on describing the problem you are trying to solve as exactly as possible, rather than getting lost in the minutia of details associated with each of the individual pumps.

 

[bbrock]

Where I was going was that I had heard that the Jandy was a 2.0 HP pump, had a smaller footprint, & had a controller that could be wall mounted like the Hayward EcoStar. Thus, I figured it was/is worth researching in comparison to the Ecostar. since the aforementioned features would work. I was just trying to find out opinions on the Jandy VS Flopro 2 HP pump or Jandy pumps in general since I have not heard much about them.

 

[bbrock]

My final decision is to go with the Hayward eco-star. I really like the fact that I could wall-mount the control module. And, not to mention the efficiency is very good. Yes maybe overkill, compared to a max flow or super slow.

One last thing though that is keeping me from pulling the trigger is the reliability. From what I read on this website and what I hear l is that most people have decided to go with Pentair. Pentair must have their pump reliability worked out. Sure, a control module that can be repositioned or mounted on a wall is convenient, but if it comes at the cost of reliability, that is a problem. The one thing that Pentair has going for it is that it is a smaller pump and it will at least fit better whether it is the Intelliflo or SuperFlo.

So, can anyone come in on the reliability of Pentair versus Hayward variable speed pumps?

 

[bbrock]

I hate to do it, but I got to bring this up again. I still actually don't see why a A.O. Smith/century 2Green motor wouldn't work if I wanted to go that route. Something such as the B2980T (3/4 hp, 1.67 SF). And if that would not work, then perhaps one of the more powerful ones would such as the B2982T (1 hp, 1.65 SF) or the B2983T (1.5 hp, 1.47 SF). Especially on the more powerful units, high-power would work, and wouldn't the lower power work for solar and or booster.

All this was brought about because of the reliability concerns on all the pumps I have discussed. I figured if it's going to fail after three years (end of warranty), no need to spend $1500 getting a VS pump installed versus just getting a motor which could be replaced a lot cheaper. Even a variable speed motor would still be cheaper and probably get me at least three years.

 

[bbrock]

I looked again into replacement motors as an option, but that route is just too complicated. I learned that the impeller for my current pump is only rated up to 1.4 THP. So, I would have to buy a new impeller and diffuser if I went with the EcoTech EZ 1.5 HP or something like the AO Smith VGreen 1.65 or 2.7 HP models. So, I would have to get a new impeller/diffuser and hope that they would fit/work. So much for that.

Now finally back to just replacing the pump. No more considerations will be given to the EcoStar or Intelliflo 011018; not that I ever gave the later too much attention, just besides acknowledging that it has a better reliability record of these two. If it is not going to be the EcoStar with the ability to wall mount the display, then all the pumps are relatively the same, as I will have to get into my equipment box regardless. I don't feel confident enough to go with the EcoStar given its reliability issues. I have read enough reviews of the pump failing after the 3 year warranty to make me reconsider. Not worth it if I am just doing it for the ability to wall mount the control.

Thus, I can now finally say that I will be going with either the Pentair Superflo 342001 or Hayward MaxFlo SP2302VSP. Since these are both newer versions of these pumps, with the Superflo being the most recent, reliability is unknown. Therefore, I will give the advantage to the MaxFlo b/c at least is has a 2 year warranty if installed by a service tech vs. the Superflo at only 1 year. Regarding the control panel, the MaxFlo gets another plus b/c it can be rotated 180 degrees so that it will be easier for me to view. Also, the MaxFlo has built in protection against voltage spikes, whereas the Superflo does not. And, based on your analysis Mark, the MaxFlo will be more efficient to operate. The one advantage to the Superflo is that I can go up to 3450 RPM vs. 3000 RPM on the MaxFlo (15% more). Here in lies the dilemma. Despite the greater energy efficiency of the MaxFlo, could the Superflo's extra power be worth it/needed?

I ask because even though I have 2" visible pipe above the ground, what if there is smaller pipe (1.5") in the ground. Is this common? I had this random thought and wasn't sure if it would affect things or warrant going with the SuperFlo. Basically, what if there is more head to my system that I am aware of?

 

[mas985]

I learned that the impeller for my current pump is only rated up to 1.4 THP. So, I would have to buy a new impeller and diffuser if I went with the EcoTech EZ 1.5 HP or something like the AO Smith VGreen 1.65 or 2.7 HP models.

As long as the new motor's THP is larger than or equal to the old motor, there is no issue. Motor's can be larger than the load just not smaller.

Despite the greater energy efficiency of the MaxFlo, could the Superflo's extra power be worth it/needed?

For what?

I ask because even though I have 2" visible pipe above the ground, what if there is smaller pipe (1.5") in the ground. Is this common? I had this random thought and wasn't sure if it would affect things or warrant going with the SuperFlo. Basically, what if there is more head to my system that I am aware of?

First a short section isn't going to change head much. But even it did, more head would just mean a little less flow rate. Nothing catastrophic would happen. But I thought I already went through a head calc on your system so I don't think that is an issue.


You really need to go back and read through this entire thread again (all 9 pages). You are really over thinking this whole thing. Honestly, it is a bit exhausting.